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Author Topic: Passenger/Space Ratios
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-05-2000 05:40 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've been doing a little bit of research into the space available on ships using the passenger to space ratio's, published in guide books.(Maybe I should get out more?) Why does space ratios matter, you may well ask? Well, if I'm sharing a ship with 1000 or 2000 other guests, I personally do not want to feel too crowded!

It will be no surprise that the Seaborne Pride, for example, one of the worlds most exclusive and expensive ships offers a very generous ratio of 50. More surprising to me was the generosity of the two Disney ships at 48. The QE2 also offers a very reasonable 47.
The giants Carnival Density and Grand Princess who's selling points are there size and spaciousness, are not really any more spacious than many other ships, at 38 and 42 respectively. The Norway manages 38.

Most of the budget cruise ships such as Carousel, Seawing, Bolero, Azur and Sundream etc are high 'density' ships. In other words they are small in size, maybe 16-23,000 tons, but carry up to 1250 passengers. Their space ratios are generally around the 22 mark - less than half the space of the leaders. This is of course how they offer half the fares, or better! Perhaps most surprising is the Norwegian Dream and Wind, although they appear to be a pretty big ships, they only offers around 26.

Finally, please remember that statistics can only prove so much. The design of the public spaces, the corridors and staircases will aid passenger flow. Verandas will also ease the pressure on deck space.

(All figures are rounded to the nearest whole number)

[This message has been edited by Malcolm (edited 07-06-2000).]


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
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posted 07-06-2000 06:13 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Any comments? Have you cruised on a spacious or non-spacious ship?
Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
First Class Passenger
Member # 322

posted 07-06-2000 08:56 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good points Malcolm! I was on Carnival's Elation looking up at the huge hole mid ship (Atrium) and thinking that the Mercury with it's much smaller atrium had more actual usable space. They are pretty, but take away a lot of passenger space. Also, do they count the areas on the ship where you have to pay to use? The new Spa pool on the Millennium is very impressive, but if you want to use it, you have to pay! It helps the way things are layed out, in the buffet for example.They should have ratings for the best overall functional design? That might be a good question? Which ship do you think is the most functional?
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cruznut6
First Class Passenger
Member # 543

posted 07-07-2000 03:06 PM      Profile for cruznut6   Author's Homepage   Email cruznut6   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Malcolm

I've sailed on ships where the space-ratio was in the 30's and won't sail on anything under 40 now. In addition to more space in public areas, cabin space usually is larger(not always). Just as important to space ratio is passenger-crew ratio. Anything over 2.5 to 1 causes services many times to be poor or services to lack. It may cost more for these benefits, but IMHO it's well worth it ;-) After all, my vacation time is too short to waste. I am amazed how hard most of the food service and hotel staff work and I don't know how they handle so many people;God bless them all!

regards.

cruznut6


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Malcolm @ cruisepage
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Member # 301

posted 07-07-2000 06:59 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mercy, I think that the space ratio is calculated from the total space available (gross tonnage) divided by the passenger capacity.

This probably means that even spaces that cannot be used, as tall atriums do make the ratio look bigger. Yes, layout is probablly equally important.

I can't imagine what a ship with a ratio of 20 must feel like - crowded I guess?


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Malcolm @ cruisepage
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Member # 301

posted 07-07-2000 07:07 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
.

[This message has been edited by Malcolm (edited 07-07-2000).]


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
PORTER
First Class Passenger
Member # 1414

posted 07-08-2000 01:20 AM      Profile for PORTER     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Crew to passenger ratio is a VERY important issue! Example... RCCL and Celebrity are owned by the same corporation. Service on the Mercury "exceeded my expectations"
Ship was kept spotless. No empty glasses left around. Deck chairs kept neat and clean.
I was very impressed that in the Palm Springs buffet, the waiters carried my wife's tray to a table for her.
On the Vision of the Seas, used dishes and glasses were left on the tables, and all around the ship. In the buffet line there was one person to pour coffee for me from the coffee machine? Yet, it was hard to find a clean table to sit at.
The total crew on the Vision was 765 crew for 2,435 passengers, while the Mercury was over 900 crew, with 1,870 passengers. The difference was very noticeable.
I agree with cruznut6. Vacation time is too short to waste.

Posts: 23 | From: washington st. usa | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
First Class Passenger
Member # 322

posted 07-08-2000 01:27 AM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Porter.. Welcome aboard!
I agree with you totally

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Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-08-2000 07:52 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, welcome abroad Porter. I agree too, I've cruised on the Mercury. However, I'm sure that a smaller well trained crew are better than a large crew that don't have a clue!

The best crew to passenger ratios are normally around 1.5 to 1 (Seaborne Pride and QE2) the worst are the budget ships (Airtours etc) with ratio's of about 3 to 1. The Mercury is in the middle with 2 to 1. They must have a well trained staff

[This message has been edited by Malcolm (edited 07-08-2000).]


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cruznut6
First Class Passenger
Member # 543

posted 07-08-2000 11:15 AM      Profile for cruznut6   Author's Homepage   Email cruznut6   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Welcome aboard Porter:-). Having sailed the Mercury,Century,Galaxy and Horizon, their staff and service is second to none! Having sailed with several mass market lines like RCCL, it's so much more enjoyable sailing on the "premium" lines. I've enjoyed every cruise I've taken, but prefer Celebrity or Princess.

Regards,

Bob/cruznut6


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29 again
First Class Passenger
Member # 1168

posted 07-08-2000 01:17 PM      Profile for 29 again     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where do you find the ratio?
I am interested int the ratio for the Veendam.

Posts: 18 | From: Oregon | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
First Class Passenger
Member # 322

posted 07-08-2000 01:37 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Veendam has 1613 passengers, with 571 crew
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Johan C
First Class Passenger
Member # 1201

posted 07-08-2000 03:23 PM      Profile for Johan C   Email Johan C   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
am just back from a Norwegian Fjord cruise on board the Festival Flamenco (17.000grt). In most of the brochures they talk about 720 pax, in the German brochure they talked about 850 pax and 350 crew, and the on board information says that it can carry up to 1400 persons (pax and crew). Anyway, the ship was very crowdy, you must fight for a deckchair or a place in the buffet. Even the restaurant was crowdy, placing 8 passengers on a table for 6.
I have been on many cruiselines (Costa, RCI, Princess, MSC,..) and I think that they are all better as Festival. MSC had the best value for the money (on board Monterey)
A staff member told me that they (Festival)had a lot of problems on the Mistral (food).
Lets hope that is getting better after the P and O takeover

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cruznut6
First Class Passenger
Member # 543

posted 07-08-2000 04:14 PM      Profile for cruznut6   Author's Homepage   Email cruznut6   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mercy

I sailed the Veendam in 1998. The numbers for double occupancy is 1266 and crew is 602, giving a 2 to 1 passenger/crew ratio. The passenger space ratio is 43.44. I enjoyed the ship because space and service were wonderful, as well as the cuisine and the ship itself ;-).

regards,

Bob/cruznut6


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Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-08-2000 05:16 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's interesting how the 'passenger to space' ratios and the 'crew to passenger' ratios are so directly related to the price and quality of the cruise. This also seems to be reflected in the 'offical' star rating system. (I suppose this is all obvious really - but it's interesting seeing the numerical proof)

In other words if you want a first class service and plenty of space, look for a space ration of around 40, or better, and look for a 'crew to passenger' ratio of 2 to 1, or better. However, you will have to pay for the privelage

(P.S. I'm not suggesting for one minute that it is not possible to have a great cruise on a ship with low ratio's - because it is!)

[This message has been edited by Malcolm (edited 07-08-2000).]


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sympatico
First Class Passenger
Member # 797

posted 07-08-2000 08:42 PM      Profile for sympatico     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mercy - Cruznut6 is right. We were on the Veendam in March the the numbers he quoted are correct. Don't know where the site you mentioned got their figures.
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Mercy
First Class Passenger
Member # 322

posted 07-08-2000 11:00 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I looked at a few other cruise sites. It's funny. They all had different stats for the Veendam. One said that there is 588 crew, another 618 crew? There was a difference in passenger count too. There was 1,613, 1,250 passengers and 1,266 passengers? I'm sure that someone that was ON the ship would have the best idea. I couldn't find anything on Holland America's web site. Sorry I passed on wrong information
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gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 07-09-2000 06:45 AM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi..part of the confusion here is the way different numbers are quoted. The industry usually shows the passenger numbers as 2 per cabin ie Veendam 1266 which with a crew of 561, gives you a ratio of 43.8. However the max passenger number [using the 2nd. and 3rd. berths in a cabin] is 1627 which gives you a ratio of 34. - quite a difference.
Same with the passenger / crew number 2.2 to 3.
The basis 2 system is why you can see cruise lines boasting sometimes that there pax numbers are over 100%.
Balconies are not included in the Gross tonnage so do not count except for the impression of private space. Ships with the same number space ratio but with big atriums, lounges etc. could indicate smaller cabins, but there are a lot of variables. Old steam ships have bigger enginerooms than the newer diesel ships which are bigger than the gas turbine ones coming in now, and Princess are going to put their GTs up in the funnel !!!...peter

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Malcolm @ cruisepage
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Member # 301

posted 07-10-2000 04:55 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some good points gohaze!

You can never know if your ship will sail with 90% or 120% passenger occupation?


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Ascendancy
First Class Passenger
Member # 840

posted 07-11-2000 10:12 AM      Profile for Ascendancy   Email Ascendancy   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think this is all relative.
The key is, are there enough elevators in strategic areas of the ship? How wide are the corridors? How many buffet lines are there? Can the showroom lounge accomodate the quests properly, How about chairs on pool deck. And then you have the sizes of the cabins. Does the cabin space overwhelm the
ship to the point you just can't get around?
This is what I care about. Congestion.
Oh yeah, and plenty of dance floor space.
I'm for small cabins and larger public spaces and corridors!


Posts: 354 | From: Aurora, CO | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
NAL
First Class Passenger
Member # 1102

posted 07-11-2000 10:33 AM      Profile for NAL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Passenger capacities are universally quoted
in double occupancy numbers. Therefore the
Veendam is 1266 as cruznut6 stated. The
double occupancy number is what is used for
comparing one ship to another.

Posts: 2243 | From: Watsontown, PA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
PORTER
First Class Passenger
Member # 1414

posted 07-11-2000 11:29 PM      Profile for PORTER     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Question for cruznut6
When I was on the Mercury, everything ran smoothly and we had no problems. Do you know that this is the result of a good captain? Or is it the same on all their ships? Would it be the way they are trained at the company level, or who is directly in charge on the ship? What do you think? I noticed on our cruise that the captain and some of his crew toured the ship every morning to check that things were done right.

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Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-12-2000 09:55 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
(I'm not Cruznut6 - but I've always got something to say!)

Although the Captain has a responsibility for the whole ship, I'm pretty sure that there is a member of senior staff responsible for the 'Hotel Services'. However, company policy and training must play a big part. I know that Celebrity rotate there senior staff from ship to ship to ensure similar standards are maintained.

Yes, the Mercury is very well organised.


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Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-12-2000 10:41 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*Flamenco*

Johan, depending which figures you use, Flamemco has a 'space' ratio of 20-23 and a 'crew' ratio of 2.0 to 2.4.

These figures are not very impressive, but are typical of the budget cruise ships. Hopefully you the fare was good value? Celebrity and HAL etc., in many cases offer twice the space, and more crew, but you do have to pay for this.

[This message has been edited by Malcolm (edited 07-12-2000).]


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cruznut6
First Class Passenger
Member # 543

posted 07-12-2000 12:41 PM      Profile for cruznut6   Author's Homepage   Email cruznut6   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
PORTER

Celebrity does what many other quality lines do; when a "new" ship is scheduled for delivery, roughly 85% of that crew comes from the fleets other ships in their line. This allows for fairly smooth and efficient running of the newest ship, but also it's an incentive for promontion for loyal and high quality staff. As far as captains, Celebrity seems to use one particular Greek capain( sorry, I've forgotten his name) to "break in" and evaluate each new ship. I have several Celebrity videos that show him on all their ships when new, including their first ship, the Meridian. I sailed the Mercury on it's third voyage and agree with you that all their ships seem to operate quite well. I have seen the captain and senior officers many times throughout the ship evaluating all aspects. That's why they remain my favorite line ))

regards,
Bob


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