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» Cruise Talk   » Cruise Ships   » Carnival, Princess, Monopolies, etc.....poppy cock!

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Author Topic: Carnival, Princess, Monopolies, etc.....poppy cock!
Tim in Fort Lauderdale
First Class Passenger
Member # 953

posted 12-19-2001 04:13 PM      Profile for Tim in Fort Lauderdale     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Despite the cries by many of "foul play" in regards to this propsed merger/acquisition by Carnival I have to disagree.

How would CC's purchase of PO-Princess:

*Bring about a lack of choice or fewer choices?

*Bring about higher fares?

*Deteriorate the level of passenger services and amenities?

It won't. Prices have *decreased* dramatically over the past twenty years. And all of the consolidation among cruise lines over the past 14 years or so has only brought more and larger ships which has brought passengers MORE choice, MORE amenities and LOWER prices. If anyone can show me where prices have risen in the past 14 years, please let me know along with the CEO's of the various cruise lines. And if any one thing has brought lower levels of passenger service, it's the low fares.

And yes, Mr Arison is looking out for the interests of his shareholders and his own interests. He sees PO-Princess as an attractive company that would add a lot to his portfolio and as a part of Carnival Corp, PO-Princess stands a lot to gain and so does the consumer.

Tim


Posts: 1468 | From: Fort Lauderdale, FL | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
nzmike
First Class Passenger
Member # 1308

posted 12-19-2001 07:06 PM      Profile for nzmike   Email nzmike   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This may be so from a strictly commercial sense, but it would create a cruise monster that would untimately results in a generic cruise product. P&O, Princess and Carnival have very different styles and merger of the companies would inevitably result in commonisation of operating procedures, personnel and untimately ships. I certainly cannot see a Carnival owned P&O going down too well in the British market, and as for the USA - well what choice would you have? Basically NCL or Carnival, and I can't see NCL lasting too long under the onslaught of the monster that would be created if the merger took place. It is also highly unlikely that many of the smaller companies could survive such an onslaught. I say maintain a healthy level of competition, continue to give the consumer some GENUINE choice - and keep the British flag flying from P&O ships!
Posts: 186 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jekyll
First Class Passenger
Member # 1878

posted 12-19-2001 07:28 PM      Profile for Jekyll   Email Jekyll   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
nzmike:

I am afraid I would have to disagree with on this one.

The scuttlebut going around the industry is that if the P&O/ RCI merger does take place, there is a good chance you will see the Celebrity product slowly disappear.

Given Carnival's track record at purchasing cruise lines and allwoing them to do what they do best, I think P&O would prosper. Don't forget - QE2 and Caronia both still fly the British flag and are the HAL ships registered in Holland?

I think that the merger between P&O would be the bigger mistake and having an homogenization of product. It would be in Carnival's best interest to keep the P&O product as is - it is less competetion for their other 6 lines.

Let's wait and see how this game of "Monopoly" unfolds!


Posts: 1524 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
cruise guy
First Class Passenger
Member # 2381

posted 12-19-2001 08:03 PM      Profile for cruise guy   Email cruise guy   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Carnival family of cruise lines have over the last two years or so been re-registered back to their original roots. Under Carnival Corp. the ships of Costa have been re-flagged back to Italy, almost all of the Holland America Line ships have been re-flagged back to Holland, both Cunard ships (as well as new Queen Mary 2) are flying the British flag, and Seabourn ships fly the flag of Norway. The Carnival Cruise Lines ships fly the flag of the Bahamas or Panama. If P&O Princess was to be bought the chances are high they would remain under British registry.
Posts: 30 | From: miami | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tim in Fort Lauderdale
First Class Passenger
Member # 953

posted 12-19-2001 11:16 PM      Profile for Tim in Fort Lauderdale     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mike,

Just as P&O-Princess is not *one* cruise line, it is comprised of six different cruise brands; Carnival Corp is comprised of Carnival, Costa, Cunard, Holland America, Seabourn and Windstar; six, yes six, different and distinct brands.

The way you refer to "Carnival", it's as if all the brands they own are all neon laden "fun ships". There's a reason Carnival Corp is as big and successful as they are; they're good at what they do, they have an eye and talent for strong branding and they know how to exploit and build strong brands. Carnival goes from strength to strength. As others have mentioned, Carnival Corp has built up and arguably has the strongest, largest and best known portfolio of cruise products; all leaders in their respective markets.

Granted, they made some mistakes and had more than their fair share of mis-steps with the purchase and subsequent merger of Cunard and Seabourn, but they realized their mistakes and are once again going from strength to stregth.

P&O-Princess is quite similar to Carnival Corp in that vein; they have a portfolio of cruise products that are all very strong, well known and regarded as leaders in their respective markets. Look how they built up Princess and the way they have built P&O; from a fleet of two old ships in 1995 to a fleet of 4 ships; all brand new or very new. And then there's the European products they've built up; just brilliant!

In both cases, the parent companies built strong companies with strong products and brand recognition.

RCCL bought Celebrity and arguably, RCCL has done a bang up job of building RCI into one of the most dynamic and well known brands out there. But what of Celebrity? I dont know about over in the UK or down under, but Celebrity has not gained an significant brand recognition since the purchase. Yeah, they have more ships and new & spectacular ones at that, but noone knows who they are.

For P&O-Princess to merge with RCCL would only mean them getting dragged down. Carnival knows how to build and maintain strong brands and P&O-Princess would be in much better hands with them and their "if it aint broke, don't fix it" attitude. Very hands off and if everything's gooing well, all Uncle Micky wants to know is how big a check he needs to write to keep things going well or how much more to make it even better. You cant say that about RCCL.

Tim, stepping down off his soapbox.


Posts: 1468 | From: Fort Lauderdale, FL | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 12-20-2001 05:18 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I might as well throw my 'two pennies worth' into the ring!

It looks is if we are going to end up with a Duopoly! All remaining big players i.e. RCI, NCL, P&O, princess etc may well be included sooner or late, and take their respective sides?

Rather than compete in a price war, and erode their respective margins, the two 'giants' can simply 'price fix'and agree not to undercut each other.

The consumer will still have a choice of various brands, but fares, the overall products and even the ship designs may all be very similar?


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
nzmike
First Class Passenger
Member # 1308

posted 12-20-2001 06:27 PM      Profile for nzmike   Email nzmike   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jekyll & Timber - yes you do both make very valid points and I agree with some of what you say - but having heard about some of the "back office" and operational changes when Carnival acquired Cunard and Holland-America, I would be very afraid that much of the unique nature and atmosphere that makes these companies so special would be lost. Its the people that make the business, and with the same people controlling such a vast empire (and having such fearsome power to prevent significant competition) I would have grave fears as to the future of the industry. Still we shal have to wait and see for it seems that the outcome is far from certain at present!!
Posts: 186 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
eroller
First Class Passenger
Member # 1649

posted 12-21-2001 01:48 PM      Profile for eroller     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While I usually agree with Tim on matters concerning the cruise industry (Tim is quite well informed), I don't see quite eye to eye on this one.

While I would prefer to see P&O Princess and RCI remain separate entities (this would be in the best interest to the cruising public), it doesn't appear this will happen. If acquired by Carnival, I do foresee changes, although not the doom and gloom as some may predict. I don't foresee any price gouging, but I do see an erosion of branding and even more homogenization of the cruise industry.

I for one don't believe for a minute that Carnival leaves it's many brands operate as autonomously as many believe. They do to a certain extent, but for the big decisions (the ones that really effect you and I), big brother steps in and says how it will be done. I'm talking about fleet deployments (which I do understand to avoid duplication and cross competition), newbuilding orders, and policy changes. For those that remember, the first thing Carnival did upon acquiring HAL (before the signatures were even dry) was to cancel the newbuild that HAL was ready to order. This was a unique design that was similar but larger than the N-Class ships. Carnival probably did the right thing, but even so this is a good example of who really makes the decisions. As we all know, Carnival replaced the original HAL design with one of their own, which was a hybrid of the FANTASY class (at least in the lower deck function designs). Hence, the STATENDAM class ship was born.

One major difference between (at least from my viewpoint) a Carnival/Princess and RCI/Princess merger is how the deal is set up. For Carnival Corp., this would be an acquisition. Princess would lose it stock symbol and become another entity under the Carnival umbrella. Carnival is basically free to do what ever they want with the company. Being that Princess is so close to HAL, I would expect to see some major changes, especially in Alaska.

The RCI/Princess merger appears to be just that, a merger. Somewhat of equals, but with stocks remaining separate and the companies guaranteed to operate as they normally would. Of course, there would be the benefit of combined synergies such as purchasing, marketing, and an overall fleet strategy. Also, lets not forget the combined interest in a new European cruise line where both RCI and Princess will donate two ships each. I think there is a lot of promise in this venture, and it may be one of the reasons Carnival is so interested seeing this merger fail (besides protecting their market share and of course, just plain ego).

Well, that is my two cents worth....and the reasons if any merger goes through, I hope it's the original one planned with Princess and RCI (RCP). I guess I would rather see two huge conglomerates such as RCP and Carnival in the marketplace, than just one.... Carnival Corp. I think it's in the best interest for all concerned parties.

Ernie Roller,
Atlanta, GA


Posts: 7046 | From: Miami, Florida USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged

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