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Author Topic: SOLAS and ships we love
Steve Read (sread)
First Class Passenger
Member # 788

posted 05-27-2003 03:42 AM      Profile for Steve Read (sread)   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Read (sread)   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry if this is an old topic, but SOLAS 2010 has just been mentioned in another thread and so I have these questions:

Can someone explain (hopefully in layman's terms) what SOLAS 2010 is all about?

And are there any of our much-loved but knocking-on-a-bit cruise ships that might have to stop sailing unless millions of pounds are spent on them?


Posts: 926 | From: Locksbottom, Kent, England | Registered: Jul 99  |  IP: Logged
joe at travelpage
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posted 05-27-2003 10:58 AM      Profile for joe at travelpage   Author's Homepage   Email joe at travelpage   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Steve, let me know if this helps...

SOLAS 2010 actually refers to the deadline - specifically 1 October 2010 - by which certain SOLAS (Safety of Life at Sea) requirements must be met.

The SOLAS Convention in its successive forms is one of the most important of all international treaties concerning the safety of merchant ships. The first version was adopted in 1914, in response to the Titanic disaster, the second in 1929, the third in 1948 and the fourth in 1960. After attempts at keeping exisitng conventions updated proved unsuccesful, a completely new Convention was adopted in 1974 and that, and its various amendments, is what is in force today.

The amendments you asked about - sometimes referred to as SOLAS 2010 - were adopted on 10 April 1992 (Resolution MSC.24(60)) and introduced new fire protection requirements for passenger ships constructed before 1 October 1994. Specifically, these new requirements were to be phased in during the 16 year period 1 October 1994 / 1 October 2010.

The April 1992 amendments are particularly important because they apply to existing ships. In the past, major changes to SOLAS had been restricted to new ships by so-called "grandfather clauses".

The specific requirements are contained in the new Regulations II-2/41-1 and 41-2.

In particular, according to paragraph 2.4 of Regulation 41-1, pre SOLAS 74 passenger ships shall comply with all the requirements of "chapter II-2" applicable to ships constructed on or after 25 May 1980 not later than 1 October 2010.

Put another way, these older ships must be brought up to the specs of the newer ships by 1 October 2010 at the latest. Practically speaking, this means that by October 2010 most of the materials onboard these ships must be non-combustible. The regulations also covered mandatory requirements for smoke detection and alarm and sprinkler systems in accommodation and service spaces, stairway enclosures and corridors. Other improvements involved the provision of emergency lighting, general emergency alarm systems and other means of communication.

The challange to many of these older ships is that to comply with the requirements, large portions of the ships will need to be taken apart, changes made and then be put back together. Either that or the ships could be gutted and rebuilt to meet the new requirements. An expensive proposition either way.

Specifics can be found in the SOLAS documentation on the International Maritime Organization web site.

IMO came into existence in 1958, and was made responsible for ensuring that existing conventions (SOLAS 1948 for example) were kept up to date. It was also given the task of developing new conventions as and when the need arose.

Joe at TravelPage.com


Posts: 29976 | From: Great Falls, Virginia | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 05-27-2003 11:18 AM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Excellent description Joe. Thanks
...peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Britanis
First Class Passenger
Member # 2912

posted 05-27-2003 01:46 PM      Profile for Britanis   Email Britanis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some classic ships may have an easier time than others in meeting the new requirements. In general, British-built liners and all other ships with thick wood panneling are doomed. Those ships built to fireproof standards in the 1940's onward may have a fighting chance.

I would think that Ocean Explorer I, Independence, Monterey, Norway, Oceanic, Big Red Boat II, Assedo, The Emerald, Stella Solaris, Marco Polo, Shota Rustavelli, Maxim Gorky, Enchanted Isle and Caronia could be upgraded relatively easily to pass the new regs, and some in that list may pass as-is.
Just about all other ships (except for those preserved as stationary attractions) will have to go. Many on the list may be too old or too fuel hungry to make upgrading feasible, so 2010 may ammount to the death of the classic liner.


Posts: 944 | From: Philadelphia, USA- former home of International Merchantile and Marine Co. | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Namlit
First Class Passenger
Member # 1940

posted 05-27-2003 01:57 PM      Profile for Namlit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by joe at travelpage:
Steve, let me know if this helps...


The SOLAS Convention in its successive forms is one of the most important of all international treaties concerning the safety of merchant ships. The first version was adopted in 1914, in response to the Titanic disaster, the second in 1929, the third in 1948 and the fourth in 1960. After attempts at keeping exisitng conventions updated proved unsuccesful, a completely new Convention was adopted in 1974 and that, and its various amendments, is what is in force today.
Joe at TravelPage.com



Well done, Joe!
In the four years that I've been visiting this site, this question has been asked over a dozen times, yet nobody has been able to deliver an accurate, easy to understand answer until today. Thank you for taking the time, thought, and energy to wade through the mountain of confusing information out there on this topic, in order to bring us your excellent reply.


Posts: 309 | From: Greene County, Indiana, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
cruiseny
First Class Passenger
Member # 2928

posted 05-27-2003 02:19 PM      Profile for cruiseny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by joe at travelpage:
In particular, according to paragraph 2.4 of Regulation 41-1, pre SOLAS 74 passenger ships shall comply with all the requirements of "chapter II-2" applicable to ships constructed on or after 25 May 1980 not later than 1 October 2010.

However some of these deadlines are earlier than 1 October 2010.

For instance, sprinklers are going to be required on all ships (even those previously allowed not to have them, i.e. those built to SOLAS 60 Method I or SOLAS 74) from 2005 (don't remember the exact date).

There is also a debate as to whether ANY older ships are actually exempt, because of just what testing will determine materials to be non-combustible, i.e. if materials from pre-1980 that were certified to be non-combustible under the regulations of the time are going to automatically be certified as such by today's standards.

I have found the IMO site to be totally useless as far as investigating such things, as it doesn't actually tell you WHAT the requirements are, rather just what date that they were revised. It doesn't even say when many of them come into effect.

If I may ask, where did you find your information?


Posts: 4730 | From: New York, USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
joe at travelpage
Administrator
Member # 622

posted 05-27-2003 05:05 PM      Profile for joe at travelpage   Author's Homepage   Email joe at travelpage   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cruiseny:

However some of these deadlines are earlier than 1 October 2010.

Absolutely, but that't not what Steve asked.

quote:
Originally posted by cruiseny:

If I may ask, where did you find your information?

I have a complete copy of SOLAS.

I also found a number of sites with helpful USCG documents to help put requirements into perspective.

Joe at TravelPage.com


Posts: 29976 | From: Great Falls, Virginia | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Steve Read (sread)
First Class Passenger
Member # 788

posted 05-27-2003 07:31 PM      Profile for Steve Read (sread)   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Read (sread)   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joe .. many, MANY thanks for your excellent summary of SOLAS. As Namlit eloquently says, it's the first time that it has been explained so expertly.

Your reply involved a huge amount of research, and I am extremely grateful for your efforts.

Cheers!


Posts: 926 | From: Locksbottom, Kent, England | Registered: Jul 99  |  IP: Logged
CGT
First Class Passenger
Member # 3531

posted 05-27-2003 08:01 PM      Profile for CGT        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What does this mean for the MILLENIUM, or rather, the Millie's extra tariff restaurant, which has original wood paneling in it from the OLYMPIC? Curious, what are the shipbuilders using today to mimic real wood paneling (like the ceiling of the Bayou Cafe or the cigar lounge, or the walls of the card room of the CORAL PRINCESS?)

CGT

[ 05-27-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]


Posts: 2760 | From: New York, New York, USA | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Britanis
First Class Passenger
Member # 2912

posted 05-27-2003 08:41 PM      Profile for Britanis   Email Britanis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CGT: Ships can still have real wood in fairly large quantities, provided that it is a *very* thin veneer and applied to a fireproof backing. I think the wood itself may even have to be specially treated with fire-proofing chemicals as well. cruiseny has all the specific details, including the maximum allowed wood thickness, maybe he can eleborate?
Posts: 944 | From: Philadelphia, USA- former home of International Merchantile and Marine Co. | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Britanis
First Class Passenger
Member # 2912

posted 05-27-2003 08:42 PM      Profile for Britanis   Email Britanis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CGT: Ships can still have real wood in fairly large quantities, provided that it is a *very* thin veneer and applied to a fireproof backing. I think the wood itself may even have to be specially treated with fire-proofing chemicals as well. cruiseny has all the specific details, including the maximum allowed wood thickness, maybe he can eleborate?
Posts: 944 | From: Philadelphia, USA- former home of International Merchantile and Marine Co. | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
joe at travelpage
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posted 05-27-2003 08:49 PM      Profile for joe at travelpage   Author's Homepage   Email joe at travelpage   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As I understand it, the wood or veneer itself is not the big issue, since it can be treated to make it less combustible.

The bigger issue is what is behind it. That surface must adhere to ever increasing fire resistance standards which vary depending on whether the wood is mounted on a wall, door, partition, etc.

The Disney ships and a number of other modern ships still use wood veneer as part of the decor because they were designed with the new regulations in mind and meet the standards defined in SOLAS.

From SOLAS II-2, Regulartion 3.4

quote:
``B'' class divisions are those divisions formed by bulkheads, decks, ceiling or linings which comply with the following:

.1 they shall be so constructed as to be capable of preventing the passage of flame to the end of the first half hour of the standard fire test;

.2 they shall have an insulation value such that the average temperature of the unexposed side will not rise more than 1408C above the original temperature, nor will the temperature at any one point, including any joint, rise more than 2258C above the original temperature, within the time listed below:

class ``B-15'' 15 min
class ``B-0'' 0 min

.3 they shall be constructed of approved non-combustible materials and all materials entering into the construction and erection of ``B'' class divisions shall be non-combustible, with the exception that combustible veneers may be permitted provided they meet other requirements of this chapter;


More details for the SOLAS junkies, from Regulation 34:

quote:
5 Veneers used on surfaces and linings covered by the requirements of paragraph 3 shall have a calorific value not exceeding 45 MJ/m2 of the area for the thickness used.

In theory, the older ships like the Rotterdam, could still use the original wood if it was made thinner and the walls behind it were replaced with modern materials. Unfortunately, making that happen is a price no cruise line is willing to pay.

Joe at TravelPage.com


Posts: 29976 | From: Great Falls, Virginia | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Britanis
First Class Passenger
Member # 2912

posted 05-27-2003 09:04 PM      Profile for Britanis   Email Britanis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, that was fast, thanks Joe!

What about Enchanted Isle, I know she needs a sprinkler system and her steam turbines are fuel guzzlers, but she has a special Jones Act exemption which makes her a very unique ship for, say, NCL America or anyone wishing to compete with them. Does anbody think she may have a chance?

This business of bringing vintage liners (like Rembrandt) up to code rsounds a lot like what was done to the White House in the late 1940's. The building was near collapse, but because of the historical value it was not replaced with a new building, it was gutted to the bare stone walls, the innerds were replaced with a modern steel cage, and the old wall coverings, doors, trim, etc. were reinstalled to give the appearance that nothing had been changed.

This COULD be done to old liners (many of which ARE historically significant) but the willingness to do so just isn't there. Why is it that the general public can be convinced to save old courthouses and enire mainstreets, but not old ships?


Posts: 944 | From: Philadelphia, USA- former home of International Merchantile and Marine Co. | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
CGT
First Class Passenger
Member # 3531

posted 05-27-2003 09:14 PM      Profile for CGT        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you, Britanis, Joe.

I was also thinking later of the wooden doors that lead out on to open decks. I guess those will be still be allowed then, too. Good.

CGT


Posts: 2760 | From: New York, New York, USA | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
CGT
First Class Passenger
Member # 3531

posted 05-27-2003 09:19 PM      Profile for CGT        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why is it that the general public can be convinced to save old courthouses and enire mainstreets, but not old ships?

Because we live in the age of the airline and people don't feel connected to things like ships (or trains even). Ships are not something people have any connection with anymore. Courthouses, main streets, are things that people have connections with in their everday lives.

CGT

[ 05-27-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]


Posts: 2760 | From: New York, New York, USA | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Waynaro
First Class Passenger
Member # 3484

posted 05-27-2003 10:06 PM      Profile for Waynaro   Email Waynaro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Britanis:
would think that ... The Emerald, ...could be upgraded relatively easily to pass the new regs, and some in that list may pass as-is.

THE EMERALD? She had been rebuilt and I would think that might put her through SOLAS-2010?

Posts: 6108 | From: Vallejo,CA : California Maritime Academy!!! | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 05-27-2003 10:28 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The big problem when you start to try and restore old ships is that you have absolutely no idea how far you are going to have to go.
You are mentioning panelling - so you take it off and find that the steel bulkhead behind is rotten and must be replaced then it's into the deckhead or the deck. Piping is involved and you keep going. Electrical wiring has been there for 40 years.

Keep in mind the Pacific Sky at aged 19 where they found that watertight bulkheads had corroded away from the shell. That pix from the QE2 with an overboard connection only 15 years old. That sort of thing is not uncommon to find when a PROPER survey is carried out.

....peter


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Aussie1
First Class Passenger
Member # 25

posted 05-28-2003 01:36 AM      Profile for Aussie1   Email Aussie1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Very interesting topic. It seems many new ships use imitation wood finishes in place of real wood vaneers becuase they are cheaper (rather than for safety reasons.) Some fake wood finishes look very real while others, like the very ordinary finishes used aboard the new Rotterdam, appear fake from yards away. Like others have said, it is what can't be seen that will cause many older ships to fail SOLAS 2010. (I have heard that QE2 will fail because of wood used behind the scenes rather than decoratively.)
Posts: 493 | From: Sydney,NSW, Australia | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 05-28-2003 08:27 AM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One other really nice little factor not mentioned lately about old ships is ASBESTOS insulation. They were loaded with it and it is EXPENSIVE to get rid of even if they know where it all is
That's why they took the SSUS to Turkey and she's all stripped out.

Most of them wouldn't even be worth it.

....peter


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Britanis
First Class Passenger
Member # 2912

posted 05-28-2003 01:46 PM      Profile for Britanis   Email Britanis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Asbestos is only dangerous when it is damaged or decaying. If the impregnated material is in good condition, it is actually far more dangerous to attempt to remove it than it is to just leave it alone.
Posts: 944 | From: Philadelphia, USA- former home of International Merchantile and Marine Co. | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 05-28-2003 02:39 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Most of that stuff was sprayed on and once you start opening up it's going to have to be removed completely. When it's old and dried out it becomes very dusty which of course is the problem. The environmental health crowd go nuts over it.

I.E. nearly all the B.C. Ferries fleet had to be done and that took a lot of time and expense.
....peter


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Britanis
First Class Passenger
Member # 2912

posted 05-28-2003 11:26 PM      Profile for Britanis   Email Britanis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, I get it, the spray-on stuff sounds like a very different matter from the fabric or cardboard-like stuff I was thinking of. SS United States used asbestos-impregnated wallboard, the removal of which has been given as grounds for her complete gutting. I still wonder if they really needed to go that far, was the wallboard still in good shape after the Hadley years? The gutting certainly increased the amount of work and money needed to return her to service- money Marmara Marine certainly did not have.
Posts: 944 | From: Philadelphia, USA- former home of International Merchantile and Marine Co. | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged

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