On the Liberty I missed the small ship experience from the Nordic Prince and Song of America days. On Nordic Prince, for example, I felt closer to the sea and stronger connection to the sea, and of course a constant reminder of being at sea from the movement of the ship. I recall walking out on deck on Nordic Prince, even Song of America and feeling the ocean spray or mist, and would often see the sea salt on the railings. In the lounges while at sea you knew you were in transit and in-motion on a ship at all times from just looking at the windows on both sides of the ship and feeling the motion. It was more of a seafaring experience. Additionally, on a smaller ship, the level of cameraderie among the passengers was greater and it seems you could get to know your fellow passengers more. There was also a closer connection to the ship's crew and staff.

On a massive ship like Liberty of the Seas, the connection to the sea is diminished because you are higher up above the sea, there is far less motion from being at sea and in transit, in fact sometimes it's easy to forget you're at sea or even on a ship. Walking through the Royal Promenade is cool, but it feels more like you're in a large building and you are among the masses. Dining in that spectacular dining room is like eating in a stadium....again there is a loss of intimacy and cameraderie among fellow passengers, because there are just so many people. Another thought is that with the huge size of the ship there are far more amenities, activities, and things to do, which is a good thing, on the other hand it's yet another distraction from the sea. In the older days I recall people saying that even a ship like the Nordic Prince was a city at sea, well the Liberty of the Seas really IS a city at sea.

Cruising has evolved with these big ships, and I can only imagine that Oasis will take that city at sea concept many steps forward to that evolutionary leap in resort vacations that happen to be at sea. The ship truly is the destination and the port visits are just a perk.

But to play the devil's advocate for a moment, it is precisely these extra resort-like amenities, all of these features which excite and attract people to sail on these huge vessels. The cruise lines, as Bob Dickinson was saying 25 years ago, are really competing with land-based resorts. For every one of us who bemoans another larger class of cruise ship, there are multitudes more who are enthralled by it all, including many people right here at Cruise Talk who I know are really ship lovers.

To get back to the sea, on an intimate ship which somehow recreates how cruising used to be, one needs to pay a premium and travel on the small, more exclusive cruise lines.

It's all relative. Just because a ship carries 5000 passengers doesn't mean it will feel crowded. It's all about how well the space is designed, how effective the passenger flow is, and how much space is alloted per passenger.

Personally I have traveled on 20,000 gt vessels which felt far more crowded then something like FREEDOM OF THE SEAS. Some of those smaller vessels can be quite dense. FREEDOM OF THE SEAS which is currently the largest passenger ship in the world (tied with her sisters) was actually one of the more spacious cruise ships I have sailed. The ship is designed so well, and there are so many different things for passengers to do, that no one area ever felt over crowded (generally speaking). Even getting off the ship in Miami at the end of the cruise was one of the best experiences I have ever had. I was walking in my home in Atlanta at 10:45am if you can believe it. We docked in Miami that same morning.

So do I think OASIS OF THE SEAS will be too big? Absolutely not. This ship has a higher space ratio then many smaller ships. Also Royal Caribbean is a master when it comes to innovation, passenger flow and design. If anyone can pull it off they can.

Frankly if I want a cruise experience that is more exclusive, I will sail on Silversea which I have done a couple times. There are no more than 300 passengers and that is when you really see a difference. Once you get on ships with more than 1000 passengers, then you are in for a large ship experience regardless of a 1000 passengers or 5000 passengers. It doesn't make much difference to me as either way you are sharing your percentage of the space with a lot of people.

Regarding "connection to the sea", this was already disscussed in detail on another thread. I felt no less "connection to the sea" on ship like FREEDOM OF THE SEAS compared to something like NORWAY. If I want the connection, I simply walk out on deck or on my balcony. That is about as much connection to the sea as you can get on any cruise ship. As I've stated in the past, if you really want a "connection to the sea", then don't sail on a typical cruise ship. Sail on a true sailing ship such as Star Clippers. There you will get as much connection to the sea as you could possibly want, maybe too much.

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Originally posted by eroller:
Personally I don't think so.

It's all relative. Just because a ship carries 5000 passengers doesn't mean it will feel crowded.

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Regarding "connection to the sea", this was already disscussed in detail on another thread. I felt no less "connection to the sea" on ship like FREEDOM OF THE SEAS compared to something like NORWAY. If I want the connection, I simply walk out on deck or on my balcony. That is about as much connection to the sea as you can get on any cruise ship.

Ernie

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Ernie, I wasn't talking about passenger congestion, or too many people...the "seafaring experience" felt on smaller cruise ships with a more intimate environment is lost. The difference is like driving a little sports car with the top down or better yet riding a motorcycle with the wind in your hair, you really feel the road and are able to experience your surroundings on the road vividly....compared to a big motorcoach bus where you can watch TV and do all sorts of things you just can't do in a little roadster. I did my best to "connect" with the sea on Liberty, but more than any other ship I have been on, I felt much more absorbed into the "City" aspect of the bigger ship, which is not a bad thing...I just miss the smaller ship experience...that is my point.

I feel like there are enough cruise lines out there to give each of us what we want. I prefer the larger ships. I can still get in touch with the sea plus I have the options that I can't find on the smaller ships.

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Originally posted by Atlcruiser:

I feel like there are enough cruise lines out there to give each of us what we want. I prefer the larger ships. I can still get in touch with the sea plus I have the options that I can't find on the smaller ships.

Gordon

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Gordon,
Like you I tend to prefer the larger ships. I just like all the amenities they offer. I also like the really small ships, like Silversea, Windstar, and Star Clippers. I can find appealing aspects to both types of the cruising experience.

Like you, I don't find any less connection to the sea on a very large cruise ship compared to a medium or even smaller (50,000 gt) cruise ship. No matter how you look at it, these are very large floating hotels and your 'connection to the sea' will have limitations. It's not like you can reach down and touch the sea on any of these ships.

A small sailing ship is really the only way to get a "true" connection to the sea. Being on any significant size cruise ship is a compromise at best if the "connection" is truly that important to you.

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Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:
QM2 has the Golden Lion and other public rooms lower in the hull (w/large windows perfect to actually see the ship's speed)... Could be QM2 is more connected in some ways than other mega ships.

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Originally posted by LeBarryboat:

I'm leaning towards favoring the smaller ships because you feel more movement from the ship, the sea and horizon is more visible from nearly anywhere on the ship.

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QM2 is small? Because QM2 has windows apparently closer to the water line she has more connection to the sea? I fail to see the logic. My guess is the windows in Studio B on Voyager/Freedom Class ships are the same height above the water line as some lounges on QM2 .... or maybe even closer to the sea. How about this, the open promenade deck on the Voyager/Freedom class is closer to the ocean compared to the one on QM2, so that must mean they have more connection to the sea. Of course that is hogwash but you see my point. Both QM2 and the Voyager/Freedom Class (along with most modern cruise ships today) are huge floating resorts. There is only so much "connection to the sea" you can experience. You want connection, then sail on something truly close to the ocean, such as Star Clippers or a private sailboat.

In regards to QM2's movement, I've sailed on her and she was as smooth as glass .... no different than FREEDOM OF THE SEAS. Sure she may have been sailing faster, but you wouldn't know it sitting in a lounge.

Ernie

[ 06-04-2008: Message edited by: eroller ]

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Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:
QM2 has the Golden Lion and other public rooms lower in the hull (w/large windows perfect to actually see the ship's speed) and probably has more of a connection than QM did. QMs public rooms are on the upper decks and in 1st class removed from the sea by the wide enclosed promenades .

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I am 48 hours from the Queen Mary 1 . Indeed except for the promenade deck there is little connection to the sea via public rooms with portholes or very small windows. Verandah Grille, 2nd class Lounge, are connected. Observation Lounge does not have the sightlines.

Stephen Payne noted that he designed in 'connection to the sea' on Mary2.

My favorite size for a ship is 50k tons with 1000 passengers: big enough for variety, and small enough to navigate.

Regal Empress: 20k tons, stuffed with 1200 passengers is not an intimate experience.

QM2: 153k tons with 2600 passengers spread over 40 or so public rooms is intimate IMO

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Originally posted by desirod7:

I am 48 hours from the Queen Mary 1 . Indeed except for the promenade deck there is little connection to the sea via public rooms with portholes or very small windows. Verandah Grille, 2nd class Lounge, are connected. Observation Lounge does not have the sightlines.

[/b]

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David,
Have a fantastic time on QM!

Your statement makes perfect sense. Ships like QM and other ocean liners of the time were modes of transportation. If anything they were designed to downplay the fact you were at sea. They had grand, opulent spaces (at least in first class) that resembled hotels and many public spaces that were fully enclosed even without windows/portholes. A "connection to the sea" was not a priority for designers.

Today, the role of a passenger ship has changed, and instead of a mode of transportation to get from point A to point B, passenger ships are vacation destinations that just happen to stop at various ports. Some cruise lines are more port intensive than others, but just about every cruise line must focus on the onboard experience. People today like the idea of being in a ship on the ocean, but certainly they don't want too close a connection to the sea. Most cruisers are not true sailers and the slightest motion may cause discomfort or at least some concern. Once again the focus is not on a connection to the sea, but on resort style amenities inside the ship (and on deck) so the ship can compete with land based vacation destinations.

This is the modern cruise industry, like it or not. Thankfully there are still choices where one can truly have that "connection to the sea" if they are serious about it. Any true sailor will tell you that you won't get it on any modern cruise ship, regardless of the size.

Just got back from Mary and Vegas. It was still great to look out the porthole of Cabin B419 at the Long Beach harbor.

Sea connection: There have been studies that the sight and sound of the sea, waves, infinite horizon, sun and smell raises the brain's seratonin levels. I believe it is why people need to be near water.

For years my family had a Fire Island beach house. The sound of the ocean helped me sleep. I would roll over in bed and watch the waves come in first thing in the morning. The experience started the day.

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Originally posted by eroller:

David,
Have a fantastic time on QM!
. Any true sailor will tell you that you won't get it on any modern cruise ship, regardless of the size.

Ernie

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[ 06-05-2008: Message edited by: desirod7 ]

I absolutely love these big ships and everything that you can do on them, to me there is only one fall back of these behemoths and that is the fact that it can be hard to find family members on board, thank fully the cruise lines thought of this sometime and started putting cell towers on board so i am just a phone call away from finding out where my brother is or finding out what time we are eating dinner. But there are so many activities to do on a Freedom Class ship that you cant possibly do them all within a weeks time.

My pursuit of going on larger and larger ships is what led me to Cruise Talk, i wanted to find out more information on Genesis and learn as much as i could. I love these Big ships and will continue to go on every one that comes out as i LOVE these ships and having the freedom to do so many things while in the middle of the ocean, and going to 3 or 4 exotic destinations within a week, most of my friends feel lucky to go somewhere like padre island or panama city while i'm cruising on an amazing ship like this...

Just my 2 cents.

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Originally posted by JOhnB:

when the cruise line install cell capability and the passengers are making the dumb meaningless - can you see me now? - calls that's too much.

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I noticed many people using their cell phones onboard, so I thought I'd try to do it too, and sure enough, I was able to call my Dad and tell him how the cruise was going from the middle of the ocean...that was kind of cool, however, I did this covertly from my stateroom. In fact you can call your stateroom attendant on your in-room phone and reach his or her cell phone.

I like what David said about how the mind reacts to the water and even the sight of the sea.

ibcrazy....I love big ships too! After having cruised on over 300 cruises, however, as much as I enjoyed the giant Liberty of the Seas and all the amenities, features, and activities...it all felt like less of an adventure...many of the activities I participated in I could do at the Mall. I felt like my cruise was more of a novelty rather than a real adventure...it didn't seem we were too far from civilization at any time, because the ship brought civilization onboard, with cell phone capability, etc. It felt less like an ocean voyage and more of an extended harbour cruise. I'm not being critical of this large ship experience, I'm just pointing out that the cruise vacation as I once remembered has changed and evolved so much that I am starting to miss the smaller ship experience.

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Originally posted by jwsowers:
I wonder if passengers in the early 1900s felt the same lose of connection from sea when they traveled on new mega ships like the Olympic or Mauritania compared to the smaller ships of just a few years before. Some even sail driven ships.

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Originally posted by LeBarryboat:

I think the environment was different back then....they traveled by ship because they HAD to, there was little choice, today people cruise for leisure...back then it really WAS an adventure to cross the Atlantic by ship, so the bigger the better in those days, because that meant more perceived comfort.

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Originally posted by desirod7:

BTW the Normandie had poorer load factors than Mary because Normandie's tourist digs were inferior to Mary. The majority of passengers never saw first class on either ship.

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Tourist Class loads were not much of a factor on either NORMANDIE or QUEEN MARY, since on both ships that class had the fewest numbers. On NORMANDIE there were accommodations for just over 400 in Third Class, vs. over 800 in First Class. Numbers were similar on QUEEN MARY: nearly 800 in First Class, vs. just over 400 in Third (Tourist.) These were the express glamour ships designed for the luxury trade, and that's where the money was made, contrary to popular belief. There were many more passengers in the 1st Class than the lowest class, and they were paying many times more in fares.

If NORMANDIE's load factors were less than QM's during the Depression, it was largely due to her overwhelming decor and glamour, which intimidated many people who felt more comfortable on the warm, chintzy QUEEN MARY. Another factor was the "foreign-ness" of being on a French ship, vs. a good old native English-speaking one. Remember, the majority of passengers were Americans.

A ship like the Liberty of the Seas in many ways is so far removed (in design) from what you would expect a ship to be like...with it's towering atriums, glass elevators, boulevard...it's more like a floating mall rather than a ship (in design). As ships get bigger like Oasis of the Seas, that Mall "feeling" will only be magnified.

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Originally posted by LeBarryboat:
[....]....I would prefer a voyage on a ship like that as large as they were to the Liberty for example, because those were pure-bred ships through and through...everywhere you turned, you knew you were on a ship, [....]

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However the majority of cruisers, especially newcomers want to go in the biggest ship with the most amenities. That is what is bringing people into cruising, people that normally would have gone to a resort in cancun for a week are going cruising instead.