Let the era of the Mega-Dam begin!

In 2010, here's how I would breakdown the categories:

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Originally posted by Tim in 'Lauderdale:
HAL is poised to finally go mass-market as the target size for their next round of new-builds is 110,000 GRT and 3,000-3,200 pax.

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:

Will this be with a Carnival or Princess hull, maybe?

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I never consider ships of 80/90.000 grt mid size ships what ever that mean? Bigger fore HAL hmmm must think about that. Actually I hoped fore a small series of smaller Prinsendam size vessels. Fore replacing the aging ship.

Hmmm things now fall in place, Krusse in his welcoming speech mentioned the Chief executer from Princess and his wife. Maybe they are using the new hull design fore Princess? Just guessing just guessing.

Oh well I sit back and wait. No I will contact Roland and ask him, maybe he know more.

Anyway this whole concept of a "premium brand" is rather weak IMO. What used to differentiate a premium cruise brand was the spaciousness of the ships, the quality of food and service, the extra amenities like premium bedding and bath products, the more varied itineraries, and the price point.

Fast forward to today, and pretty much all the traditional mass-market lines have upped the anti. Many sail on world wide itineraries, have upgraded amenities, have refined the food and service, offer equally spacious ships, and are priced very similar (or in some cases even more expensive) than the so-called premium lines.

Basically it's becoming more and more difficult for "premium" lines to sustain their product differentiation. With larger and larger ships, even less so.

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Originally posted by GregD:
Regarding the comparison of HAL to Celebrity, I really feel they are going after 2 different markets.

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Hi Greg,
I think both Celebrity and HAL classify themselves as "premium", and go after the same market, but each line appeals to a different segment of that market. As you already pointed out, those that are drawn to a more contemporary experience would choose Celebrity, and more traditional HAL. Either way, both lines market themselves as a step above the mass-market experience.

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Originally posted by eroller:
Celebrity proved they could maintain a certain so-called "premium" standard with the larger Solstice Class, so it's only natural HAL would follow suit.
Ernie

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Queen Mary 2 is a premium-deluxe experience in a very large ship. To me it not so much the size and amenities, but the passenger to hotel crew ratio.

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Originally posted by Cam J:
Size doesnt make a cruise line mass market or not. HAL will never be a mass market line. We often get in the mind frame that a line must have small ships or have a small fleet to be luxury or premium. If HAL wants a bigger class of ship its because they want to expand their offerings. Like Malcom said "Super-sizing has not seemed to damaged any cruise lines reputaion in the longer term. In fact it has helped more than anything.

I would argue against that, let's face it, how can any ship that can carry 2000 people or more not be a mass market, if sorry but the numbers speak for themselves.

Ernie is right in many ways, the lines are blurring between some of the lines, Carnival has better beds than Princess, HAL has better food than Carnival, Princess has ... Well actually, nothing is better about Princess now that I stop and think about it, but I like them, except for the beds.

The point is, you find a line that works for you, some peoples choice will not be for many others, but to call a Vista class ship anything other than mass market is just silly.

Cam J

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At this stage I am seriously considering other cruise lines and only looking to smaller ships - that is how it made me feel.

On Azura the ship was so crowded that the 8:30pm theatre showing had queues on both decks and both sides stretching right through to the atrium (seriously). It was so bad that people actually entered the earlier sitting before the first show ended to find a seat (P&O put on a 7:15pm showing to counter crowds). Also other venues throughout the ship were at over capacity with standing room only.

The restaurants managed fine as did the buffet. It was the indoor entertainment venues that suffered from extreme crowding.

In comparrison to the Sapphire Princess of the same design minus the extra (Riviera) deck and at 2,600 passengers, I had no problems of crowding at all and could relax on deck late, go to freedom dining and enjoy the shows at peak time.

While I have no issue with any line going bigger the one thing that especially seems to suffer with size is the amount of deck space available for non "gimmicky" things, I suspect Epic may prove to be a good example of this and certainly Ventura has received a large amount of negative reviews in this regard, however nice you are I don't want to cuddle you when I am sitting by the pool !

Further made an issue with VIP sun decks, cabanas etc. Solstice has also received negative comments in this regard, of course if the Lawn was instead a sundeck with small pool she wouldn't have that problem.

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Originally posted by Sutho:
Personally I am going to look more at passenger space ratios now and I might consider sticking to smaller ships or large ships with a high passenger space ratio.

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Originally posted by mike sa:
As Sutho mentions space ratio is important especially in this market segment...

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I've read commented on this board and others that space ratios are a deceiving factor in using them solely as a guideline for deciding what ships to book, even so far as small ships with high space ratios feeling overly crowded and OASIS sized ships with 6000 passengers feeling spacious and uncrowded. Space ratios based on a ships double occupancy or if all berths are filled can be quite different, versus feeling 'crowded' with a variable of contributing factors like popularity of a certain venue or show, peak dining or meal times, off-season low occupancy, passenger flow, and even inclement weather.

For instance where two completely different ships can have the same space ratio but one feeling overly crowded and the other not:

LIBERTY OF THE SEAS: 42
154,407 gt / 3634 passengers

CARNIVAL PRIDE: 42
88,500 tr / 2124 passengers

Reading back over 10 years worth of threads it is generally agreed upon that space ratios are an almost worthless statistic yet everyone keeps referring back to them.

http://www.travelserver.net/travelpage/ubb-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=000337

[ 07-08-2010: Message edited by: dmwnc1 ]

[ 07-08-2010: Message edited by: Grant ]

A 800 seat theatre is comfortable on Sapphire (2,600), yet on Azura (3,100) it is full as are all other venues.

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Originally posted by Sutho:
I can compare Sapphire Princess to Azura as they are literally the same ship with up to 500+ more passenger difference.

A 800 seat theatre is comfortable on Sapphire (2,600), yet on Azura (3,100) it is full as are all other venues.

A few years ago I used to actually post that I take no notice of space ratios.

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This is of course your experience from a single cruise on each ship, but reading multiple reviews of the Caribbean Princess (3,600 passengers) I see numerous comments echoing a different sentiment i.e.:

"Ultimately, the most impressive thing about Caribbean Princess was that the more-than-3,000/passenger ship managed to never feel overcrowded." and " Most important, I was happily surprised not to feel crowded at anytime during the cruise." 

I can remember in 1989 we crossed the Atlantic for the first time on Royal Princess and docked next to Canberra in Madeira. Everybody could visit the other ship. RP was full of Brits while hardly any American Princess passengers visited Canberra

The Brits did not like RP. As our more modern ship had a few very big lounges while Canberra had many smaller ones. And I suppose they did a lot of things different and at different times than for example they used to do in the US market

Things have changed I suppose as RP ended up as Artemis :-)

When Ventura came out there were a lot of complaints about over crowding on the sun decks. All Brits simply love being out in the sun while a US marketed crowd might like otherwise.

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Originally posted by jetwet1:
Ernie is right in many ways, the lines are blurring between some of the lines, Carnival has better beds than Princess, HAL has better food than Carnival, Princess has ... Well actually, nothing is better about Princess now that I stop and think about it, but I like them, except for the beds.
[QB][/QB]

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I agree 100%. I do think that the lines that separate the major cruise lines are slowly starting to blur.

Another news outlet, which will remain nameless (because according to Holland America, they got it wrong), is reporting Holland America's next generation of ships will be in the 110,000-ton range, carrying 3,000 passengers.

According to the line, the reporter must have misunderstood. Holland America is committed to mid-size ships.