Looking forward to it!

In full that's probably: "Breakaway from STX Europe Chantiers de l'Atlantique"?

[ 06-13-2011: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:
In full that's: "Breakaway from STX Europe Chantiers de l'Atlantique"?

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Originally posted by SSTRAVELER:

Since Meyer built all the ships prior to Epic its not really a breakaway as much as a return to their roots

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Yes - that will teach NCL to be unfaithful.

I don't suppose we will ever know the full story about the 'cancelled' F3? The fact that NCL have quite quickly ordered two new 'big' ships suggests to me that the recession and capacity were probably not the main reasons for cancelling the second F3.

MEYER WERFT's cruise ship order book

S.679Celebrity Silhouette, Celebrity Cruises 2011
S.688 Disney Fantasy, Disney Cruise Line 2012
S.690 AIDAmar, AIDA Cruises 2012
S.691 Celebrity Reflection, Celebrity Cruises 2012
S.695 AIDA N.N., AIDA Cruises 2013
S.678 Breakaway 1, NCL 2013
S.692 Breakaway 2, NCL 2014
S.697 Sunshine 1, RCI 2014
S.698 Sunshine 2, RCI 2015

(looks like NCL will beat RCI)

[ 06-13-2011: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

One thing that I'm interested in are the dimensions. How wide will the NCL and RCI ships be? How much wider than the Reflection can they go?

Meyer Weft has hit the jack pot with new build orders.

Gordon

[ 06-13-2011: Message edited by: Atlcruiser ]

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:

I don't suppose we will ever know the full story about the 'cancelled' F3? The fact that NCL have quite quickly ordered two new 'big' ships suggests to me that the recession and capacity were probably not the main reasons for cancelling the second F3.

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I agree Malcolm. I think the economy was a good scapegoat for NCL, but the real reasons probably stem from issues NCL had with the F3 project. The new senior management envisioned something different than F3, and when they attempted to make dramatic changes they were met with resistance from STX. Frankly it's lucky EPIC was ever built to begin with. As I recall work had stopped and STX was looking for a new buyer (no one wanted it!). As it turned out, didn't the first F3 get canceled and technically the second F3 was actually built? I can't remember all the details but it seemed complicated.

It will be interesting to see more details of "Project Breakaway". These ships will truly be the vision of NCL's current management team.

Well only the cabin forecast was right!

[ 06-13-2011: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

Epic was envisioned to expand/carry the freestyle to new levels by the management team of the moment which was the NCL folks and the representatives from Star. They got stuck on the idea that they needed mega ships to complete and on a platform that size they could truly become totally freestyle.

When Apollo came in with their investment, new people including Kevin things started to change. Apollo questioned the cost and if they could truly get away from everything the industry knew.

In the end it was Apollo's people who started redesigning the ship and driving the French mad. The designs had been set for the first F3 and they were cutting steel and everything while NCL/Apollo was feverishly redesigning. Just like what were called Author's Alterations, each one had a price tag and the French were sitting there with their green eyeshades and ledgers just running up the tab.

In the end it all came down to a fight over the cost of building the ship with all the alterations being made.

F3 #1 was already well underway with a fair amount of steel cut, shaped, welded, etc. To accommodate the pricing issues, cancellation penalties in the contract, etc. NCL and the French agreed that officially the first F3 contract was canceled, the cancellation paid and the second F3 contracted proceeded with the higher, reset price. Lots of legal mumbo-jumbo to keep the lawyers and accountants happy/busy.

The contract reads as if the second ship was built but they used the partially assembled steel that would have been the first ship.

I think the decision to make the Epic a one off was a function of cost of building and vision of the different investors/management. Project Breakaway will be more flexible and a little more in keeping with NCL's product while the Epic will float around as a one off that they sell as the entertainment mega ship.

Epic and her sister ship could well have become "project break the bank" for NCL and set them back 20 years financially.

Live and learn .... and pay the price for your mistakes is the lesson for NCL.

Now the question ... what do you name the next two if that one was Epic ..... is the next one the Lesser of Two Evils?

[ 06-13-2011: Message edited by: SSTRAVELER ]

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Originally posted by SSTRAVELER:
Actually Malcolm the statement was no main theater no main dining room for the Epic and that more or less came true.

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I distinctly remember no traditional buffet as well. As you know EPIC has a very large traditional buffet.

I think originally the ship was designed with no main theater. I believe a small one was added as part of the new management changes, and frankly I think it's way too small for the ship. It really limits the variety of shows because such a great number of performances have to be scheduled to accommodate the entire passenger compliment. Of course performers can only work so many hours and performances in a week before they become fatigued. Also as it was basically designed around Blue Man Group. What happens when this contract expires? I suppose the theater will have to be somewhat redesigned to accommodate whatever is next. There are no other entertainment venues on the ship capable of accommodating more than a couple hundred passengers. Again I think very limiting for a mass-market ship that carries 4000+ passengers.

I agree that with Project Breakaway we are going to see more traditional concepts, such as a large main theater that can accommodate roughly 1/2 the passenger compliment. It just allows more flexibility in entertainment scheduling. I also think we will see the return of a second, more multi-purpose large lounge which the Star and Jewel Class ships have as Spinnakers. I would be very surprised if the split bath design reappears as well.

I'm guessing we may see an expansion of the adults themed deck and pool areas, similar to what Princess is doing with ROYAL PRINCESS. While mass-market lines have catered more and more to families, I think they are finally realizing they have alienated the adults with no kids and are starting to cater to them. Not everyone wants a Disney style family experience, and this is essentially what the mass-market lines have become as we see more partnerships with companies like Dreamworks and Nickelodeon. Balancing all those needs of families, singles, and couples is a challenge. Some lines do it better than others.

Anyway just like EPIC, I have high hopes for Project Breakaway. For me, EPIC was a huge disappointment. I'm hoping these new ships will be different.

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Originally posted by eroller:
I think originally the ship was designed with no main theater. I believe a small one was added as part of the new management changes, and frankly I think it's way too small for the ship.

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Yes Ernie, although Epic has a pretty conventional theatre, it only accommodates 681 passengers: about 6th of the passenger capacity. (The Theatre manager also told me the ceiling is too low to make the best use of modern theatre lighting).

Like Oasis you can book many of the shows online pre-cruise (but not all). However you do not get allocated seat numbers. Passengers arrive early to get the best seats – sometimes 45 minutes early. Passengers who have not booked can queue for spare seats (20% are held-back I believe) and they can queue for up to an hour and still not get in.

Some commentators have suggested that Epic is the least ‘Freestyle’ NCL ship of them all. Although Oasis has a similar system, it has a much larger theatre and large aqua-theatre and the quite big Studio B, plus smaller entertainment rooms.

I feel sorry for the Epic crew with regards the ‘Manhattan Room’, as this is also used as a show lounge and lecture theatre during the day. Crew must be forever taking out tables and adding rows chairs to the dance floor (theatre style) only to put the tables back (often covering half of the dance floor) for evening meal.

However, it does all kind of work on board Epic, especially if you book your entertainment in advance.

I ended up with a very complex schedule of entertainment, excursions s and alternative dining, even before I set foot on board the ship.

Even if you want to buy a weeks spa-pass, only 60 are available for couples and you need to book onboard soon as you embark. Likewise you need to book the icebar on board as it olny hold 25 passengers.

This degree of advanced panning is of course not everybody’s idea of a ‘relaxing’ cruise.

[ 06-14-2011: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

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Originally posted by desirod7:
...and see some of the passengers more than once.

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:

Some commentators have suggested that Epic is the least ‘Freestyle’ NCL ship of them all. Although Oasis has a similar system, it has a much larger theatre and large aqua-theatre and the quite big Studio B, plus smaller entertainment rooms.

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I would have to agree Malcolm that EPIC doesn't seem very "Freestyle" at all. In fact it sounds as if you don't plan everything in advance, you could spend a good part of your vacation waiting in lines. On OASIS and ALLURE I never had to wait in line for anything. Yes I planned everything in advance, but then again Royal Caribbean doesn't market itself as a Freestyle experience.

On OASIS and ALLURE you don't actually have reserved seat numbers either, even when you book in advance, but this did not equate to 45 minute queues. There were never any lines to speak of on either ship, and I always got great seats for everything.

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Originally posted by Fairsky:
The name "Norwegian Epic" was a bit of a departure from their past naming schemes. They've used natural objects (star, sun, sky, wind, dawn) and precious stones (jewel, gem, pearl, jade). In the past they had royal names (majesty, dynasty, crown). Of course there are a few odd names (spirit and dream). I wonder if they'll stay with this new direction started by Epic? How about:

Norwegian Saga
Norwegian Odyssey
Norwegian Legend

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I have a feeling they'll name them something different and unique, but not as brash as Epic.

Norwegian Monarch
Norwegian Majesty
Norwegian Crown
Norwegian Moon
Norwegian Pride
Norwegian Sea

Best,

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Originally posted by linerguy:
I vote for Norwegian Kipper I and II....

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Project Breakaway Cabins

Standard balcony and bathroom design is pretty much a replica to the Celebrity Solstice and OASIS/ALLURE design. Closets are positioned the same way and so are the larger standard bathrooms. The "interconnecting" design is also repeated. Instead of being "wavy" like on EPIC, the design is more angular just like on SOLSTICE/ALLURE/OASIS. Keep in mind that the Solstice Class was also built at Meyer-Werft, and a lot of research was done on this particular cabin design. I guess Royal Caribbean/Celebrity did not place any kind of trademark or patent on it considering this design for Project Breakaway is very similar.

I note the shower on Project Breakaway even features a "shaving bar" for the ladies. This was a feature announced by Celebrity when the "Five Leading Ladies" helped design the cabins.

Can't tell for sure but the NCL version may be slightly more narrow as there is still no coffee table in front of the sofa (like on EPIC), but both the Celebrity and Royal Caribbean design have this feature.

Ernie

[ 06-21-2011: Message edited by: eroller ]

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Originally posted by Fairsky:
This is the most powerful admission yet that Nor. Epic's design was a total flub by NCL. Glad to see they can learn from their mistakes.

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CC did an interview with Kevin Sheehan and he commented on the cabins and appearance of EPIC. One thing I can't stand about NCL is they don't take ownership like most other lines. When speaking of certain aspects of their product, I read "they" and "them" or even "somebody" instead of "us" and "we". You would never read 3rd person in quotes from Richard Fain of Royal Caribbean or most other lines. It's almost like NCL tries to distance itself from certain aspects of their own brand. It sort of demonstrates a lack of confidence in their own product which is not good. You can see what I mean in this section of the Q&A.

Ernie

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CC: People might naturally assume that the "breakaway" also refers to Norwegian Epic, the monolith -- there will be no sister -- that was a struggle to complete and has some much-debated elements. Are there learnings from Epic that will not be incorporated into Project Breakaway? We're referring specifically to the controversial see-through bathrooms and the "hat," the top-ship protrusion housing the courtyard villas that gives Epic is unforgettable look.

KS: The cabins on Epic are very interesting, but [the bathrooms] are little bit much for many of our guests. We do get a lot of comments from people who say they love the cabins. If you're a young couple or whatever, it's not a big deal. But if you're in there with a couple of kids, it gets a little dicey. The [clouded glass bathrooms] were something very new to the industry and they were probably beyond what the industry was ready for. [Editor's note: They are far more common in hotels.] I suspect that we won't be bringing them to the next ships.

We left the "derby" at home this time. [Editor's note: "Derby" refers to a bowler hat, as worn by Charlie Chaplin.] We thought [the courtyard complex] through in the Project Breakaway planning, and so it'll be more integrated into the structure this time around. What must have happened [on Epic] was that somebody said, "Let's put another level on it," and it made the ship look a certain bit odd.

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I think in the case of Sheehan it's ok because he was not a part of the NCL leadership who designed and ok'd Epic. It was under the previous ownership and previous executive team who are now, thankfully, gone. A new team has been put in place by Apollo, and Project Breakaway is their effort to fix the mess created by Epic.