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» Cruise Talk   » Technically Speaking   » QM2 Stability

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Author Topic: QM2 Stability
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 05-02-2004 12:32 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We have confirmed that a Video about building the Voyager class clear states that some of the upper decks are constructed of Aluminium to ensure that this very tall ship is NOT top heavy.

Therefore, I wonder who Stephen Payne ensured this with the QM2, as he did not use Aluminium, but steel. The drafts of both Voyager and QM2 are similar and quite shallow for their size.

(Interestingly the SS Norway has a deeper draft than the QM2 and the QE2’s is similar to the QM2).


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
CGT
First Class Passenger
Member # 3531

posted 05-02-2004 12:49 PM      Profile for CGT        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:
We have confirmed that a Video about building the Voyager class clear states that some of the upper decks are constructed of Aluminium to ensure that this very tall ship is NOT top heavy.

Therefore, I wonder who Stephen Payne ensured this with the QM2, as he did not use Aluminium, but steel. The drafts of both Voyager and QM2 are similar and quite shallow for their size.

(Interestingly the SS Norway has a deeper draft than the QM2 and the QE2’s is similar to the QM2).


QM2 is wider (Beam).


Posts: 2760 | From: New York, New York, USA | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Captain Rhone
First Class Passenger
Member # 3498

posted 05-02-2004 01:23 PM      Profile for Captain Rhone   Email Captain Rhone   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
QM2's widest point is 147.5 feet (bridge wings) and Voyager's is 157.4 feet at what seems to be the bridge and Navigator's is 161.1 feet.I did read somewhere on Cunard's site a while back that she was 164 feet wide somewhere.It also had a diagram of the bridge and upper half.QM2 seems to be good with stabibility.On the QM2 special her thruster door fell off though...They did use steel though.It was an interesting special to find this informaton people have been talking about lately! I have seen that QM2 and QE2's draft actually are both 32" feet 7' inches instead of her original 32"feet 10'inches on QM2.
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Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 05-02-2004 03:16 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, my information says the published beam of Voyager is 19 feet wider than the QM2's?

So how is stability achieved?


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PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 05-02-2004 03:55 PM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With the extra thickness & strength of QM2's Steel hull, and therefore the actual weight of her lower hull, I should imagine her centre of gravity is far far lower than any Voyager Ship and a darn site more stable.
Pam

Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 05-02-2004 04:10 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PamM:
With the extra thickness & strength of QM2's Steel hull, and therefore the actual weight of her lower hull, I should imagine her centre of gravity is far far lower than any Voyager Ship and a darn site more stable.

Good point!

I wonder if the 'Royal Prom' which is essentially a big hole in the middle of the ship affects stability?


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
CGT
First Class Passenger
Member # 3531

posted 05-02-2004 04:13 PM      Profile for CGT        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:
Yes, my information says the published beam of Voyager is 19 feet wider than the QM2's?

So how is stability achieved?


Hmmm, maybe what I read was that QM2's beam was wider than QE2's.


Posts: 2760 | From: New York, New York, USA | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brian_O
First Class Passenger
Member # 3910

posted 05-02-2004 04:54 PM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:
Yes, my information says the published beam of Voyager is 19 feet wider than the QM2's?

So how is stability achieved?


Is it really 19 feet wider? The bridge width is not the important figure. The important figure is widest point of the hull at or below the water line; that is the true beam. For QM2 that is 135 feet. What is it for Voyager?

In any event, using just the beam of two ships to attempt to explain differences in their stability is overly simplistic and not very reliable.

The shape of the underwater hull also needs to be considered, rather than just her beam. For example, Weight determines the volume of water displaced and the geometry of the underwater hull determines how far the ship will sink into the water (and hence her draught) to achieve that displacement.

On top of all that, the location of the centre of gravity in relation to meta-centre (centre of geometry) has the greatest affect on stability....the lower the centre of gravity, the better.

The heavier steel used in the hull (mentioned by Pam) offsets the extra weight of using steel rather than alumumum (or aluminium if you prefer) in the superstructure. This was achieved by moving the public rooms into the hull, allowing the major length of the superstructure to be narrower (and by extension lighter) than it would otherwise have been.

I have no doubt that there are other factors that need to be considered but the point that stability cannot be explained by one number has been made.


Brian

[ 05-02-2004: Message edited by: Brian_O ]


Posts: 2698 | From: Pointe-Claire, QC Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 05-02-2004 05:17 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian_O:
What is it for Voyager?

155.5 Feet.


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lasuvidaboy
First Class Passenger
Member # 4527

posted 05-02-2004 09:10 PM      Profile for lasuvidaboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Also QM2 has those larger/heavier more powerful engines (4 compared to Voyager's 3) to add the her lower center of gravity. As mentioned earlier, her superstructure is narrower above the boat deck for most of her length, this would have to add to her stability in rough seas. As much as I think QM2 would have looked better had her superstructure been built farther out-over the boat deck and lined up with the hull, her great stability might not have been as good.
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Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 05-03-2004 03:58 PM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Speaking of stability: Having just seen the Discovery Channel's QM2 feature, in which, as is usual in such documentaries, a voice intones that the four stabilizers will keep 'er steady in the roughest seas (or words to that effect), PamM, how well did the stabilizers actually work in the heavy seas encountered?

Was there any mention of them, at any time?

Given the legacy of smashed crockery, I gather that they were not completely effective.

[ 05-04-2004: Message edited by: Cambodge ]


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 05-03-2004 04:13 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cambodge:
Given the legacy of smashed crockery, I gather that they were not completely effective.

Am I right in thinking a ship using stabilizers loses speed and uses more fuel - hence the Captain's sometimes choose not to use them?


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lasuvidaboy
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Member # 4527

posted 05-03-2004 09:27 PM      Profile for lasuvidaboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They do cause the ship to burn quite a bit more fuel. Stabilizers are not effective at slower speeds as well as certain sea conditions such as long swells. I was on QE2 crossing the Pacific during a World cruise and at 29 knots she just slowly pitched with the long swells we encountered. Quite a few passengers seemed to be ill during that day. We all seemed to improve when the seas turned really rough off Australia and the stabilizers did their job perfectly.
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Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 05-04-2004 01:58 PM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Stabilizers will have little effect on pitching, in any event. I have also observed, that pitching, with the "elevator effect" is a greater contributor to seasickness, than rolling.

Observations?


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Globaliser
First Class Passenger
Member # 4153

posted 05-05-2004 04:11 AM      Profile for Globaliser     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd always understood that the worst form of ship movement for inducing motion sickness was corkscrewing - combined rolling and pitching in a roughly synchronised cycle. Stabilisers will stop one component of it, and you can then minimise the effect of pitching by positioning yourself appropriately in the ship.
Posts: 1869 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 05-05-2004 06:20 AM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cambodge:
how well did the stabilizers actually work in the heavy seas encountered?
Was there any mention of them, at any time?
Given the legacy of smashed crockery, I gather that they were not completely effective.

Adding to Colin's comments in this thread, I felt she did an excellent job. How much of that was down to the stabilizers I don't know, I never heard them mentioned in the Commodore's reports, but I was usually in a lecture which typically overran, and didn't get to hear them. I did hear some people say they'd been able to feel the jolt when they were employed, but I am sceptical there.
The waves were all over the windows on deck 2 from time to time but ne'r when my camera was in action. Spray was also over the top of deck 13 at times.
She was more pitching than rolling. The plates etc were not sliding back and forth, but ended up on the floor when one of the extra high waves 'slapped' hard, a quick jolt. I am not very good at explaining.
We were [on the Sun am] eating breakfast in Kings Court, all was fine, just the pitching, when bang, a big slap on the starboard side and crockery basically dived to port. I reacted quickly and put my arm across the edge of the table, not losing anything, but several tables did, and one of the large urns with palms fell over next to us. This is a big urn 2' 6"+ high, see here , and as we discovered, filled with sand and the plastic 'fronds' on metal poles held in place with polystyrene in the rim covered with stones. Quite amusing watching the steward march off, palm under arms, poles and polystrene sticking out behind. I did not have the camera.
We got slapped like that a few times during the night, hence the loss of champagne, and also I believe wine too, as certain items on the wine list became 'not available'.
We did roll a fair bit one, late evening, when I could not stand without holding on in the Play Zone, and flew across the room. The children were only allowed to sit down. The contents of their cupboards were completely turned upside down. One of the co-ordinators there had been on the Maiden Voyage and his comments were that the rough weather experienced then was more 'side to side' & nothing like what we were currently experiencing. A totally different movement altogether he said.
Pam


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Brian_O
First Class Passenger
Member # 3910

posted 05-05-2004 06:49 PM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PamM:

I did hear some people say they'd been able to feel the jolt when they were employed, but I am sceptical there.


I have long been able to discern when the stabilisers are in use on QE2; she has a unique little "wiggle" to her that disappears when they are not in use.

Brian


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Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 05-05-2004 08:14 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PamM:
...hence the loss of champagne, and also I believe wine too, as certain items on the wine list became 'not available'.

That was more likely to be caused by the big drinker's onboard, rather than by big waves!


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged

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