Now firstly let me say that I have cruised on an RCI ship, but have only toured a Carnival one. I am not in a good position to judge both products first hand, but here are some observations:

*The RCI ships are more attractive externally than Carnival’s.

*The RCI ships are arguable more advanced in terms of onboard facilities.

*The Voyager Class for instance wins over the Destiny Class. The Radiance Class is arguably better than the Spirit Class?

*RCI’s decor is more likely to have a winder appeal than Carnival’s

All of your observations are correct... but you have failed to see through economic lenses.

Carnival is able to offer lower prices on their cruises (in general) than RCI, and Carnival has better managed their debts and costs to maximize their profits.

RCI designs better ships- but Carnival runs a better business. This allowed them to advertise heavily in the 1980's and 90's (long before RCI ran commercials), expand their market share by offering lower priced cruises, and buy other cruise brands to dominate the industry (RCI did not buy another brand until 1997 when they merged with Celebrity- and that has not proven to be a success).

Even today Carnival has realized that the future of the industry lies in Europe- so they are heavily building their Costa and Cunard brands... and RCCL is desparate to get in on the action with their Island Cruises and by selling Celebrity and RCI cruises to Europeans. This is one reason RCCL wants to merge with P&O- they need a stronger presence in Europe.

They cover almost every segment of the market, with Carnival, Holland America, Costa, Cunard, Windstar, and Seabourn.

Royal Caribbean covers a smaller area, they only have Royal Caribbean and Celebrity brands.

So I don't think it should be puzzling at all...

And of course Carnival runs a much tighter ship (no pun intended) economic-wise...

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Originally posted by Eric:
Malcolm...its the size of the casino!! I once read that the President of Carnival said "no cruise line ever went bankrupt through putting too big a casino on board"
Americans cruise to gamble/eat/party, get those right & you are made.

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You're not kidding! I have never seen people pile their plates so high....and stagger back completely drunk from Carlos 'n Charlie's or whatever it's called. They drink those 'cocktails' on board at $7 a go as if they're water! I did find it 'sad' to see people playing slot machines at 9am in the morning though.

As to Malcolm's original question, I think CruiseNY he was referring to the beginnings and the build up as just the Carnival brand rather than the whole conglomerate as at present. I would liken Carnival to Virgin Atlantic & Branson... one aircraft and now numerous companies and fingers everywhere.

The marketing image of being young, fun, 'hip', free [as in no cares/hassles] and affordable to the masses, has a lot to do with it. Catch your clientel young and they'll stick with you as they grow older. Get the marketing right, hit the right people and you're made.

Cruising for the mainstream American was a boom business. Carnival's idea was what today's entire industry is based off of. And thus Ted Arison embarked on a growth plan that involved building new vessels. They built Tropicale, which at the time was a gigantic vessel. It was a huge success, and I don't think it's a mystery why. Remember, there was no Voyager of the Seas to compete with back then. A brand new ship at an affordable price was a complete novelty just as anything at an affordable price had been ten years earlier. And Arison built more new ships, and it became a profitable company, and the rest is history...

So why hasn't RCCL overtaken Carnival? This is where today's Carnival Corporation came in. The next phase of growth for Carnival was the taking over of Holland America. This was part of the new plan to develop a family of different brands for different market segments.

This wasn't a new idea, Carnival had been working for several years on something called the Tiffany project. Arison decided that now that the mass market was conquered, he could do better than the competition in the other markets as well. Statendam was actually on the drawing board before Carnival took over HAL, as it was the ship design for Tiffany project.

The rest of course is history. Carnival went into more market segments by taking over established companies within those markets. The more markets Carnival went into, the more successful they were, which gave them money to go into more and more markets. And by the year 2000, Carnival had a complete brand portfolio where each of their brands is a powerhouse in its market.

No other company has such a wide selection of different brands than Carnival. Royal Caribbean certainly cannot come close. P&O Princess puts up an effort, but they have a less successful focus of dividing their brands geographically. They don't compete in every market by doing so. Carnival allows their brands to naturally attract the right sort of customer, and so while a nationality may be naturally more likely to choose a certain brand, a wide choice is available, and to every major market.

Royal Caribbean, of course, hasn't yet figured out a way to divide their brands at all. Royal Caribbean, the brand, is very successful... But they try to be all things to all people, and Carnival's approach of brands targeted at specific audiences is much more successful. It only makes sense that someone would prefer a brand that is closer to having been custom-made for them. That's why so many people are loyal to a specific brand, and often that brand is part of Carnival. By offering so many different variations, one is bound to find a brand that fits like a glove. And once that happens, they have a loyal customer.

And of course, people change, and Carnvial has provided for that too. They're all too happy to point out the other brands, so should you decide that eventually people, if they so desire, can easliy move through the product line, and they are given good incentive to stay within the family. With RCCL they aren't, and with Princess, there isn't a family. In the US market, there's only one brand.

So the entire thing is a matter of marketing, and of their unique (to cruising) way of arranging their comapny's structure.

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Originally posted by Britanis:
Just had a thought: RCCL could buy Independence and Big Red Boat III and use them to relaunch Fantasy Cruise Lines (as Britanis and Amerikanis, respectively). What do you think? That pair would give Regal Empress, OceanBreeze, and Norway a real run for their money.

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Wouldn't be worth it...

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Originally posted by Cruiseny: Wouldn't be worth it...

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Originally posted by Britanis:
I realize that it doesn't make much sense from an economic standpoint, I was just "dreaming out loud" so to speak- after all, the name is "Fantasy".

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I see... I would like to see these ships back...

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Originally posted by bases5:
I think that the dollar is the main reason. I know there is a lot of people that think the same way we do.

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Good point!

All cruises from the UK are pretty expensive in my opinion, even My Travel!

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Originally posted by Cruiseny:Why don't we have them buy back Princesa Victoria?

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Originally posted by Britanis:
Why not? This is a virtural cruise line, after all. Fantasy could charter her for Bermuda cruises out of New York and Philadelphia under her earlier name "The Victoria". Britanis and Amerikanis would be based year-round in the Caribbean, Britanis on 3-7 night Bahamas/Eastern Caribbean, Amerikanis on longer more diverse itineraries around the Caribbean. Its fun to dream isn't it?

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It's fun all right!

How about Stella Solaris? She'd be a good running-mate to Victoria I think.

Speaking of cruises out of New York and Philadelphia... Reminds me that my dad went on a cruise on Victoria (Incres Lines) in 1963, to the Caribbean from New York.

That is why Princess Cruises, the weaker third sister, is so important to either Carnival or Royal Caribbean, For Carnival it is to cement its lead while for Royal Caribbean it is to give it its brand divesity it needs.

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Originally posted by HomeLines:
The money that Carnival Corporation makes from Holland America is even more than the Royal Caribbean and Celebrity combined, even though Holland America is much smaller! Even Princess makes more money than Royal Caribbean and Celebrity combined!

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That's right, and the reason for this is that RCCL has a tremendous amount of debt.