Date Published: Saturday 04 June 2005

Size does matter!
by Keith Hamilton

An extraordinary battle has broken out between the two giants of the cruising industry to see which holds the crown of the biggest vessel afloat.

And Southampton ship-watchers are going to get a front seat view in this battle of the heavyweights.

At present the city's luxury liner Queen Mary 2 - owned by Cunard - is officially the world's largest passenger liner.

However, she is set to lose her crown when rival Royal Caribbean International's Freedom of the Seas takes to the water for the first time in May 2006.

Not to be outdone, Cunard bosses are drawing up plans for a mega cruise ship that would dwarf them both.

The project - codenamed Operation Pinnacle - is being designed at the UK headquarters of the Carnival Corporation, which owns Cunard, in Town Quay, Southampton.

It is likely that the new ship would be almost a third bigger than Freedom of the Seas and capable of taking up to 5,000 passengers.

Carnival Corporation chairman Micky Arison is unwilling to divulge any more information about the proposed new ship but it is clear that his company is jealously guarding its crown of biggest liner on the seas.

A Cunard spokesman said: "QM2 is a true liner as opposed to a cruise ship and on that basis she will still be the biggest in the world. The Cunard flagship can do many things others can only dream about, such as operating a regular transatlantic service between Southampton and New York.

"Together with Queen Elizabeth 2, Cunard still has the most famous vessels in the world.''

QM2, which arrived in Southampton on Boxing Day 2003, is the largest, tallest, widest and most expensive passenger liner in history, capable of accommodating 2,620 paying passengers.

It is longer - the length of 41 double-decker buses - but narrower than Freedom of the Seas. Both weigh the equivalent of about 375 jumbo jets.

Freedom of the Seas, which is expected in Southampton in May next year, is billed as a vast floating resort, complete with water park, ice rink and rock climbing wall.

One of her most amazing features will be two huge hot tubs that will be cantilevered from the sides of the ship and suspended 112 feet above the waves.

Freedom of the Seas, which will be permanently based in America and undertake Caribbean itineraries, will be able to accommodate up to 3,600 passengers including a Presidential Suite with room for 14 people in four bedrooms and four bathrooms.

Royal Caribbean International boss Richard Fain said: "Freedom of the Seas will be the most head-turning, most innovative and most forward-looking ship in the cruise industry.

IMO, size isn't the important thing of a ship. Look at Voyager of the Seas, she once was the biggest ship in the world, and i never heard things about her in TV. It is simply the fact that QM2 is the first real liner till 40 years, the decent luxury, the fascination of a liner and the fact that she isn't one of those white, overloaded apartment blocks, which makes QM2 so popular.

I think, the maximum is reached with FOTS, the cruise lines should concentrate on building beautiful, smaller ships.

greetings

marco

[ 06-04-2005: Message edited by: marco g ]

They would not build it if they could not fill it. RCI manage to fill 14(ish) ships every week, five of them are Voyager class in the carib.

And how small will the cabins be? I mean, a ship like the QM2, which has the same size like FOTS, took nearly half the passengers and the smallest cabins are 18 sqm, so the cabins of FOTS must be 10 sqm small to took 5000 people.

Big ships do not have smaller cabins; it does not work like that! In fact cabins are getting bigger.

IMO, size isn't the important thing of a ship. Look at Voyager of the Seas, she once was the biggest ship in the world, and i never heard things about her in TV.

I agree, but more passengers cruise each week on the five Voyagers than in the QM2. QM2 has certainly captured the headlines, but the Voyagers pull in the crowds.

I think, the maximum is reached with FOTS, the cruise lines should concentrate on building beautiful, smaller ships.

I'd certainly like to see more smaller ships in addition to the giant ones. However, I'm not sure there is a size limit. Every time they build the 'biggest' people say it's too big, then it becomes a runaway success, and they build a bigger one!

[ 06-04-2005: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

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Originally posted by vikingcrown:
Just what we need - a 5000 passenger ship!

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I think the cruising public need it - just watch the flood of bookings when she enters service. Just watch the number of post about her here.

Patsy said: It will be interesting to see if this ever becomes a reality (and what they call it!).

There has already been much talk about Carnival's (not Cunard's) Pinnacle Project . It's going to happen. I think QM2 designer, Stephen Payne is involved?

[ 06-04-2005: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

But what about safety?

Yes, it is the case that the larger the ship becomes the more "means for emergency" she has but I think that a capacity of 5000 would hinder safety in case of emergency.

Imagine how many rescuers will be required, how would it be made possible to rescue so many people withing resticted time limits?

Maybe it will take a "disasterous accident" before cruise lines stop building jumbo ships..

[ 06-04-2005: Message edited by: Keitaro ]

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Originally posted by Linerdan:
Gday all......

Has anyone seen any renderings on what these new so called giants will look like?.
Thanks Linderdan

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The Pinnacle project is Carnival's. Read the report carefully:

Not to be outdone, Cunard bosses are drawing up plans for a mega cruise ship that would dwarf them both.

The report says 'Cunard Bosses' which are 'Carnival'. I suppose they put it this way because not so many Brits have heard of Carnival, but many know Cunard. In addition Cunard/Princess/Carnival - there is a big overlap of staff these days.

And with ships getting bigger what does everyone think the likelihood of Liverpool's large cruise ship call visions are..

Knowing Carnival it will just be a larger version of the chopped up Conquest class. Carnival seems to have a hard time coming up with something innovative or new. Also 5000 passengers is not that much of a difference than the Conquest class which holds 3700 when all berths are full. Talk about crowded you have it on this ship as I have experienced first hand. One of the worst designed ships afloat IMHO.

My problem with carrying this many passengers is how will the crew handle an evacuation of over 5000 passengers in an emergency? How fast and safely can they get it done? I think that it's time for the Coast Guard to step in and say enough is enough and place a limit on the number of passengers.

I for one have no plans to cruise on anything that large. I do have to say that I love the Voyager class from RCI. Not a crowded feeling at all.

Gordon

[ 06-04-2005: Message edited by: Atlcruiser ]

[ 06-04-2005: Message edited by: Atlcruiser ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Atlcruiser:
My problem with carrying this many passengers is how will the crew handle an evacuation of over 5000 passengers in an emergency?

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I’m very reluctant to say a ship is ‘too big’. After all what size is too big? Is 2000 passengers O.K? How about 2500 or 3000? I really could not define a limit.

The key is good design. Some small ships which only carry 500 passengers can feel very crowded; others that carry 2500 can feel very spacious.

quote:

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Originally posted by sread:
If it goes ahead, I wonder what time the last suitcase will be delivered to the cabins. Three days into the cruise, I expect.

And imagine the queues at check-in ...

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Exactly. If they ever build a ship that size it will overwhelm the ports it visits and I just don't believe you can have 5,000 people on a ship without having people tripping over each other.

quote:

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Originally posted by joe at travelpage:

Exactly. If they ever build a ship that size it will overwhelm the ports it visits and I just don't believe you can have 5,000 people on a ship without having people tripping over each other.

Joe at TravelPage.com

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quote:

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Originally posted by joe at travelpage:
If they ever build a ship that size it will overwhelm the ports it visits and I just don't believe you can have 5,000 people on a ship without having people tripping over each other.

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I hate to disagree with the boss, but I must!

I’m neither pro or anti a 5000 person ship, but I do think it is very possible. Many of us mocked the Destiny class, the Grand Princess, Voyager and QM2, at the time. I remember many of us commenting how Cunard would ever fill all of those QM2 cabins, well they appear to be doing so.

Many ports already receive say six ships, with 2000 plus passengers each. That's more than two 'Pinnacles'. As long as limits are set, the problem of overcrowded islands/ports should not get any worse than it is now. Of course the ship itself should become the destination.

Passenger space onboard will be determined by the ships design. I recall Ernie saying that the 'Voyager' class for example, was well designed, with few bottle necks compared to many smaller ships which carry a lot less people.

Suit case delivery will depend on the number crew, the ships design and the ports embarkation facilities. Lines at the check-ins are often due to inefficient systems which are very manual. There are often simply not enough check-in desks, too. All of this could be put right with good design and adequate staffing.

Of course I do agree, that if they do NOT get the design and all of the logistics right, that will equal ‘maritime gridlock’.

[ 06-05-2005: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

BUT there are ports which can handle 5000 passengers a day and there are also itineries where such a ship could be filled ->

What is the difference for a port between two ships with 2500 passengers in port at the same time - and this already exists - and one ship for 5000 ? Also some of these ships do the same itinery in paralell. So from that point of view it would not make much difference - only the operator of the ship(s) could save money, as the per passengers costs are probably lower for a bigger ship.

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Originally posted by Keitaro:
Agree Joe, and also I doubt many ports of call/ports facilities can handle such monsters!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patsy:
Though the only thing that puzzles me about this is why Cunard? I'd have thought if anyone went for the 'bigger one', it would be Carnival themselves.

The Pinnacle project is Carnival's. Read the report carefully:

Not to be outdone, Cunard bosses are drawing up plans for a mega cruise ship that would dwarf them both.

The report says 'Cunard Bosses' which are 'Carnival'. I suppose they put it this way because not so many Brits have heard of Carnival, but many know Cunard. In addition Cunard/Princess/Carnival - there is a big overlap of staff these days.

And with ships getting bigger what does everyone think the likelihood of Liverpool's large cruise ship call visions are..

As cruising continues to grow in the UK, I think many of the UK's passenger ports which fell on lean times with the seath of the Ocean Liner will grow once again, including Liverpool.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Patsy:
LOL! Well we'll have to see if this monster ever gets built - and floats!

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The Pinnacle project WILL be built, it's Carnival's turn to outdo RCI's 'Freedom of the Seas' project. The only question is how big will she be and when wll she be built. There was talk of 2008 at the earliest.

See this from March: Pinnacle

[ 06-05-2005: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]