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» Cruise Talk   » Cruise Lines   » "Sudden List" on Princess (Page 1)

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Author Topic: "Sudden List" on Princess
Jim Avery
Just Boarded
Member # 5462

posted 07-20-2006 08:24 AM      Profile for Jim Avery     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Any confirmed information on the degree of list incurred? I have seen from 12 to 30 degrees list in the media. Any Naval Architect types out there want to explain metacentric height and at what degree of list a floating condo style ship like this would not recover? Was on QE2 in the 80's when we took severe rolls to port with much the same results aboard but she appears to be much more stable for rolls than the new generation cruise ships. QE2 was in very heavy weather at the time. Princess apparently was in calm seas. An interesting event.
Posts: 3 | From: Destin, FL. USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ernst
First Class Passenger
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posted 07-20-2006 08:45 AM      Profile for Ernst   Author's Homepage   Email Ernst   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Modern ships are generally very stable - more stable than older ships.

Here you can read a bit about stability. (nothing on regulations or dependence on the parameters - but there is not a lot one the net one can post)

Whereas modern cruise ships can recover from a very severe list (beyond 30 deg.) they have to be designed in a way not to go beyond 15 deg. (or was it 11.5 deg? - I forgot) by e.g. rudder action.


Posts: 9746 | From: Eindhoven | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
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posted 07-20-2006 08:57 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sounds like a question for 'Super Gerry'!
Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Tom Burke
First Class Passenger
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posted 07-20-2006 09:02 AM      Profile for Tom Burke   Author's Homepage   Email Tom Burke   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The accounts on cruisecritic (from passengers on Crown process at the time) suggest that the rudder, under software control, suddenly went hard over (I don't know in which direction) as a result of which the ship turned very sharply. Result - a big list away from the direction of the turn.

I also read a news report that suggested over 200 injuries of one sort or another, 70+ transferred to hospital, and 2 people still in hospital 36 hours or whatever after the event.


Posts: 1469 | From: Sheffield, UK | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-20-2006 09:27 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom Burke:
The accounts on cruisecritic (from passengers on Crown process at the time) suggest that the rudder, under software control, suddenly went hard over.

I do not think that the passenger’s perceptions about the cause of the incident are very helpful. They can only accurately comment on the effects.

For example, the Master may have been avoiding collision with an obstacle, such as a small boat, which the passengers never saw.

'Crown Process' - I like it!

[ 07-20-2006: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 07-20-2006 09:56 AM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The USCG have apparently estimated a 15degree list, according to FloridaToday. Nice diagram, except their protractor needs recalibrating. The tilt shown is 30degrees, double reality... do these guys always exaggerate?

Pam


Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-20-2006 10:17 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PamM:
... do these guys always exaggerate?

Yes - "never let the truth get in the way of a good story"!


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
lasuvidaboy
First Class Passenger
Member # 4527

posted 07-20-2006 12:41 PM      Profile for lasuvidaboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does this mean that the boat deck did not dip into the sea as reported by a passenger??
Posts: 7654 | From: Hollywood Hills/L.A. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 07-20-2006 02:33 PM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the guy only said 'nearly'? I imagine if looking down from above, quite a fair distance could be called 'nearly', purely because it was an awful lot nearer than normal

Pam


Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tom Burke
First Class Passenger
Member # 5238

posted 07-20-2006 03:07 PM      Profile for Tom Burke   Author's Homepage   Email Tom Burke   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I do not think that the passenger’s perceptions about the cause of the incident are very helpful. They can only accurately comment on the effects.

For example, the Master may have been avoiding collision with an obstacle, such as a small boat, which the passengers never saw.


Again, I can only quote from cruisecritic, but several passengers have said that the Captain effectively announced afterwards that the manoeuvre had been inadvertent and uncontrolled, and that the ship would thereafter be under manual deliberate control.


Posts: 1469 | From: Sheffield, UK | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
NAL
First Class Passenger
Member # 1102

posted 07-20-2006 03:18 PM      Profile for NAL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was on Rotterdam V in the late 70's returning from
the Bahamas en route to Bermuda when suddenly she took a very hard turn to port....on a perfectly
clear, calm day. I was in an elevator returning to the upper-prom deck when suddenly the doors opened and I flew across the hall. All kinds of things in the shops feel and broke, chairs flew and people tumbled. I don't remember that there were any bad injuries or an explanation of what the cause was. I seem to remember that they were avoiding something in the sea, but I cannot be sure after all these years later.

Posts: 2243 | From: Watsontown, PA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gerry
First Class Passenger
Member # 168

posted 07-20-2006 04:06 PM      Profile for Gerry     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The ship heeled to 15 degrees. This is not particularly problematic for the ship itself. The amount a ship can heel over and still recover varies according to the type of ship and its stability. In fact most ships encounter problems of flooding before they would reach the point of no return. This would of course excacerbate (sp?) the problem. A good sea ship with plenty of stability may be able to heel up to 50 degrees or so and still return to th eupright however, this isn't the problem at all. The problem is the fact the if a ship heels over suddenly, the MOMENTUM hurls anything unsecured about, including passengers and the higher the position on board, the worse the effect, like whiplash.
I know from experience that a sudden roll on a previously settled ship always seems to roll more than you thought it did. I am not surprised that passengers are claiming wild accounts of 45% lists as that's what it feels like.
I know comparing QM2 is a little unfair but let me explain that on her sea trials, one of the tests is a full speed hardover turn where the pods are turned as quickly as they can whilst the ship is going full speed. We were all looking forward to this particular test as, along with crash stops, is one of the most dramatic. We had to clear all scaffolding and ladders, made many tannoy announcements to secure everything as we knew that anything unsecured would go flying. Then we did the manouver. It was spectacular alright, the hsip heeled over like a warship and did a very impressive, tight turn. We had to hold on and the odd toolbox and ladder that had been missed did indeed grow wings and flew across the ship. BUT, - the ship only heeled over 5 degrees !

I have some photos which I'll send to Malcolm. Perhaps he can post them here.


Posts: 315 | From: Miami, Florida, (originally from UK) | Registered: Jun 99  |  IP: Logged
joe at travelpage
Administrator
Member # 622

posted 07-20-2006 04:25 PM      Profile for joe at travelpage   Author's Homepage   Email joe at travelpage   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, here's my attempt to recreate the list at 15 degrees using a photo of Grand Princess. As Gerry pointed out, the higher up on the ship the more pronounced the effect will be.

Joe at TravelPage.com


Posts: 29976 | From: Great Falls, Virginia | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Ernst
First Class Passenger
Member # 5369

posted 07-20-2006 04:48 PM      Profile for Ernst   Author's Homepage   Email Ernst   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As it might give the impression that some of us who do not believe these horror numbers think that this was not a severe event - being suddenly exposed to a list of 5 to 15 degrees (which BTW is actally pretty steep) without any warning IS VERY SERIOUSE - no need to exaggerate the angle.

P.S. As some use % as found on road signs - mind you that 100 % inclination is 45 degrees - so 5 degrees would be app. 9% and 15 degrees would be app. 27 % - remember that when you come across such a road sign the next time.

[ 07-20-2006: Message edited by: Ernst ]


Posts: 9746 | From: Eindhoven | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brian_O
First Class Passenger
Member # 3910

posted 07-20-2006 05:36 PM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gerry

At the time of QM2's trials someone posted a photo of her making a crash turn to port (taken from a plane or helicopter) on Cruise Talk. What was impressive about the photo was how little QM2 heeled over to starboard. I have been searching unsuccessfully for a copy of that photo that I downloaded and another one taken from the bridge.

Brian


Posts: 2698 | From: Pointe-Claire, QC Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
joe at travelpage
Administrator
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posted 07-20-2006 05:47 PM      Profile for joe at travelpage   Author's Homepage   Email joe at travelpage   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brian_O:
Gerry

At the time of QM2's trials someone posted a photo of her making a crash turn to port (taken from a plane or helicopter) on Cruise Talk. What was impressive about the photo was how little QM2 heeled over to starboard. I have been searching unsuccessfully for a copy of that photo that I downloaded and another one taken from the bridge.

Brian


Brian,

Here's a picture from the bridge during a sharp turn that was originally posted back then...


Larger Version

Joe at TravelPage.com


Posts: 29976 | From: Great Falls, Virginia | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Ernst
First Class Passenger
Member # 5369

posted 07-20-2006 05:49 PM      Profile for Ernst   Author's Homepage   Email Ernst   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
see here for a photo of a ship making a sharp turn during the trials (you see that one does not see a lot) -
and here the 'famouse' picture of the Elation - to give an example for a podded vessel

Posts: 9746 | From: Eindhoven | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brian_O
First Class Passenger
Member # 3910

posted 07-20-2006 06:05 PM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PamM:
I think the guy only said 'nearly'? I imagine if looking down from above, quite a fair distance could be called 'nearly', purely because it was an awful lot nearer than normal

Pam


It just an illusion caused by a lack of an external physical frame of reference, and that affects your depth perception. When the ship heels a bit and you cannot see its side below you, then the water looks a lot closer than it really is. If you are not used to the phenomenon then it can be quite frightening.

Brian


Posts: 2698 | From: Pointe-Claire, QC Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brian_O
First Class Passenger
Member # 3910

posted 07-20-2006 06:11 PM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks Joe.

That's one of the two photos I was looking for. I think the other was originally posted on the WSSNY web site in their long photo essay on the building of QM2 (which included a few excellent photos taken by Pam, I might add).

Brian

[ 07-20-2006: Message edited by: Brian_O ]


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Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-21-2006 05:02 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the pro insight, Gerry.
Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 07-21-2006 06:34 AM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, let me try it again, as I posed this question once before and got no answer.

Where is the point in ship design in which a hull ceases to "bank" in a high-speed turn, as does a runabout, and starts to lean?

I have been aboard some large yachts in my day, but never encountered leaning, only banking, and those were at very moderate speeds.

I remember in a convoy in the Pacific during WWII when a Destroyer Escort at high speeds threaded its way throughor pack of ships, leaning outboard mightily at the time - - -very impressive.

In short is it size or tonnage that determines when a ship will "bank or lean" in a sharp turn?


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gerry
First Class Passenger
Member # 168

posted 07-21-2006 08:56 AM      Profile for Gerry     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joe, thats one of the pics I sent to Malcolm. Thats me in the photo......

Cambodge,

Its to do with scale and power to weight. If you looked at a cross section of a small boat, the propeller is a long weigh below the centre of gravity in relation to the cross section, when the outboard, for example is put over, it causes a torque on the boat and forces the bottom half to the outside of the turn, therefore the top of the boat leans into the turn. For a large ship, it acts like a car. There is not enough power far enough away from the centre of gravity to force the bottom of the ship to the outside of the turn so naturally the top part falls away from the turn through centrifugal force, like a car.

Ship stability was one of the subjects I struggled with during my training. Transverse stability, like weve been talking about here isnt so bad but longitudinal stability and the reaction of compartmental flooding or 'bilging' and damage stability was a nightmare for me but at least I passed.... There are new regulations about to come into force about damage stability in ship design which are even more complex.


Posts: 315 | From: Miami, Florida, (originally from UK) | Registered: Jun 99  |  IP: Logged
Pascal
First Class Passenger
Member # 5510

posted 07-21-2006 09:11 AM      Profile for Pascal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Many thanks for all those replies "superGerry" !
Perhaps a bit off topic, but I would like to ask you something.
Demon waves are now a proven fact and it's known that they are the cause of several incidents. And I assume that such a wave is likely to cause as well a pretty severe list. Were there any new regulations about this, and is that more taken into account when a new ship is designed ?

Posts: 1371 | From: Aix en Provence | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gerry
First Class Passenger
Member # 168

posted 07-21-2006 09:28 AM      Profile for Gerry     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pascal,

I'm going to show this to my wife, I think I'll get a T-shirt made with supergerry on. She'd kill me....

Rogue waves aren't really considered when desiging the ships. There are regulations in place and the intended service of the ship and area of operation always has a bearing (she may need ice strengthening for example).

Roque waves though are a little misunderstood. Its not a single huge wave racing across a calm sea taking people by surprise but actually one that is larger than the rest, thats all. There will be bad weather and heavy seas already before a rogue wave may be encountered. The ship will already be aware of the heavy seas and may well be steering into them, or better on the shoulder so when if a rogue wave ever does come along, the ship is at the right aspect to meet it anyway. You will notice that in all of the incidents, the damage to ships has been in the forward superstructure as their running into the sea. It is extremely unlikely that a rogue wave would be encountered beam on, causing a big roll.


Posts: 315 | From: Miami, Florida, (originally from UK) | Registered: Jun 99  |  IP: Logged
Pascal
First Class Passenger
Member # 5510

posted 07-21-2006 09:35 AM      Profile for Pascal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Gerry ! Ooops, sorry: SuperGerry !! (If I recall correctly, it's Malcolm who called you this way the first)
Posts: 1371 | From: Aix en Provence | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged

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