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quote:Originally posted by origo:[...]Also there is a saying that it takes three years to construct a ship but three generations to build a maritime culture so the quality problem with US ships is not so easily solved.Some of my friends works in the NCL office, they were NOT very impressed by the NCL America ships.
Presently there are indeed no large passenger ships built in the United States. Nevertheless, there is still quite some expertise in shipbuilding in the United States that dates back more than three generations. Don't forget that some of the most complex ships like e.g. aircraft carriers are built in the United States.
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quote:Originally posted by Ernst:Presently there are indeed no large passenger ships built in the United States. Nevertheless, there is still quite some expertise in shipbuilding in the United States that dates back more than three generations. Don't forget that some of the most complex ships like e.g. aircraft carriers are built in the United States.
Origo, NCL towed the POA to Germany for completion rather than Ingalls because they have a long term relationship with Lloyd Werft. People work with whom they are comfortable, have a history, or an extended test drive for complex professional service where there is much to go wrong.
Sweden is losing its car making ability. Both SAAB and Volvo had to team up with GM and Ford respectively or they would be out of business.
[ 02-21-2008: Message edited by: desirod7 ]
quote:Originally posted by origo:Some of my friends works in the NCL office, they were NOT very impressed by the NCL America ships.
Some of my friends works in the NCL office, they were NOT very impressed by the NCL America ships.
Only one of the three NCLA ships was partly built in the States (Mississippi). That one (Pride of America) was a very basic shell as I recall and towed to Europe for complete fitting out. The other two were re-flagged NCL ships built in Europe.
quote:Originally posted by Ernst:Presently there are indeed no large passenger ships built in the United States.
Presently there are indeed no large passenger ships built in the United States.
Today we seem to prefer having are large cruise ships built in Europe. We had our Queen Mary 2 built in France of all places!
quote:Originally posted by origo:Well, aircraft carrier is maybe not the most advanced ship to build, a chemical tanker (or even more a gas tanker) is far more difficult.Remember that they towed NCL Americas ship to Germany to complete them instead of doing it in US (Philadelphia?)
Hetsa inte upp Dig for mycket origo.Carriers are not that easy to build!
quote:Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:Today we seem to prefer having are large cruise ships built in Europe. We had our Queen Mary 2 built in France of all places!
Why shouldn´t your QM2 have not been built in France???
quote:Originally posted by recab:Why shouldn´t your QM2 have not been built in France???
I never said that. Read the post again.
QM2 for practical reasons could not have been built in the UK or the US for that matter. Chantiers offered the best price and top-notch experience and Carnival Corp. chose them.
There are no yards in the States that can compete w/the experience of the shipyards in Italy and France etc. when it comes to large passenger ships as those yards specialize in their construction.
If the Federal Government and a private firm wanted to invest in that type of operation they could but they chose not to. We like building airplanes instead.
quote:Originally posted by origo:Well, aircraft carrier is maybe not the most advanced ship to build, a chemical tanker (or even more a gas tanker) is far more difficult.[...]
I am not saying that there are no other complicated ships and one can finally not compare the 'complication' of these ship types. (being able to build aircraft carries does not necessarily help a lot for gas tanker or cruise ships) But there is still quite some expertise here in the U.S. and beside aircraft carries many other rather sophisticated ships are still built in the U.S.
P.S.: To say that nuclear aircraft carrier are 'not advanced' is a rather incompetent remark.
quote:Originally posted by Ernst:P.S.: To say that nuclear aircraft carrier are 'not advanced' is a rather incompetent remark.
Oh come on. All it is is a big boxy ship w/a flat top covered in asphalt.
quote:Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:We like building airplanes instead.
I seem to think they do that in France too
Pam
quote:Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:Oh come on. All it is is a big boxy ship w/a flat top covered in asphalt.
Dump some dirt, throw a little grass seed and drive through a rain squall.
A few days later you will have the first Solstice-class aircraft carrier.
quote:Originally posted by PamM:I seem to think they do that in France too Pam
And Brasil and Canada etc. etc.
It must be pretty nearly true that of the 50 largest passenger ships ever built, 45 or so have been built in the last 15 years.
quote:Originally posted by Tom Burke:It's a strange to think, but we are actually living through a golden age of passenger ship construction, and almost all of them have been built in France, Germany, Italy & Finland.It must be pretty nearly true that of the 50 largest passenger ships ever built, 45 or so have been built in the last 15 years.
This is very true. In another thread it has been discussed that Norway/France went from being the largest passenger ship in the world to somewhere being the 100th largest passenger ship in the world within only 13 years. -> Not 50 but more than 100 (!) of the largest passenger ships ever built were built within the last 15 years.
quote:Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:QM2 for practical reasons could not have been built in the UK or the US for that matter. Chantiers offered the best price and top-notch experience and Carnival Corp. chose them.
If the Passenger Ferries of Samsung are any indication, it might be a while before they at least are able to deliver to cruise ship standards of build quality.
[ 02-21-2008: Message edited by: Matts ]
No doubt we do, in the long term probably not to US but to Asia (when the dollar goes up).However this is ok (not nice of course), in a free trade world we must accept this.My point was that if US wants free trade for Motorola, GE, GM , Intel you name it US has to accept that other countries compete with them. When it comes to ship building I’m sure that Europe not can compete in 20 years either. We will still do the design but to fabricate the hulls etc will no doubt be done in Asia.
quote:Originally posted by Matts:I thought the final race for yards was down to Harland and Wolff and Chantiers, to UK could indeed have built her - when the order was placed.
Yup, and just think, there would then have been a Fred. Olsen built Carnival vessel
quote:Originally posted by origo:[...]We will still do the design but to fabricate the hulls etc will no doubt be done in Asia.
I think this is one of the big misconceptions out there: 'Industrialized countries have the know-how and do the design and it will be built somewhere else' - this is absolutely not true. Emerging countries already have the know-how, they already have the capability to do the engineering and design of many product - and building a passenger ship is not rocket science. The design of a (passenger) ship is usually the outcome of the effort of many different design and engineering companies more or less anyone can hire. Like with any product having experience is certainly an advantage, but the competitive advantage of those yards that build passenger ships is - beside subsidies - not so much 'secret (technical) knowledge' but a functional system or network of suppliers. It's this logistical problem they have solved which gives them an advantage compared to yards who do not build passenger ships. Sooner or later another yard will figure that out too - and some of these suppliers will finally deliver to these yards too. I guess this is a question of time. (if it's not already happening)
quote:Originally posted by Ernst:The design of a (passenger) ship is usually the outcome of the effort of many different design and engineering companies more or less anyone can hire............................................ not so much 'secret (technical) knowledge' but a functional system or network of suppliers.
If one attends Sea-Trade the exhibitors represent just about every industry and technology known to man from security systems to deck shoe manufacturers.
I think he makes a good point that reserving certain fields of operation out of US ports to US flag vessels runs counter to the principles of free trade, which the US generally supports. Why should Norway allow US products and services to compete freely on the Norwegian market if the US does not allow Norwegian ships to offer their services out of Honolulu! This seems unfair.
He makes the further point that not allowing free competion of cruise ship services allows the US operator (NCL America) to drop its standards, and ends up being more expensive for the US consumer.
The Jones Act, in its cabotage provisions limiting US port-to-US port traffic to US flag ships, appears outmoded in the present age. Americans deserve the benefits of free competiton - lower prices and a higher quality product - rather than efforts by NCL America to introduce further anti-competitive rules.
The Jones Act provisions requiring vessels to be built in US yards are even more unreasonable, but they're not the issue OP raised.
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