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» Cruise Talk   » Cruise Lines   » Deutche Bank says sell Carnival

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Author Topic: Deutche Bank says sell Carnival
mike sa
First Class Passenger
Member # 5957

posted 09-26-2008 08:02 AM      Profile for mike sa   Author's Homepage   Email mike sa   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From CC:

"Deutsche Bank downgraded Carnival Corp. to 'sell' from 'buy.'

According to Reuters, analyst Simon Champion said the cruise operator's returns may be lower than its cost of capital in coming years.

Citing steep fuel prices and newbuild costs, Champion suggested a strategic shift may be needed.

Deutsche Bank lowered Carnival's price target to $32 from $52.50. "

Well if this turns out to be the case then RCI and NCL are totally stuffed and likely to disappear altogether.

We will have to see how others view the same info but DB is a well respected institution. Personally I will hold my stock, even at $32 and that is a huge reaccessment of target price, I am well up but there are many out there who bought at well over $60.

Also if this is the case then expect a rush to cancel ship yard orders, at least in Carnivals case they have the cash to pay out if they do, others do not.

I may have said it before but RCI are taking a huge risk with the Freedom class, Oasis class and Solstice class - the finance on these ships (and indeed any new ship going forward) is going to be very expensive (much higher than anyone would have thought perhaps - the days of "cheap" money are over) and there are several people out there (Micky Arison for one) who worked out that even full they will not be able to earn enough to pay the financing costs and will run at a loss. Apollo will no doubt of done these sums - perhaps that has more to do with F3 than redesign !

The cruise industry may be at a crucial juncture - increase in fuel costs, huge increase in finance costs, and a significant downturn in their 2 biggest markets with knock on effects elsewhere. I see Ireland is now offically the 1st Euro country officially in recession - others are bound to follow. It would seem the traders are already betting on even Carnival not being unscathed, the near future may look substantially worse for RCI especially as they do not have an Apollo to foot the bill.


Posts: 2272 | From: Durban, South Africa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
eroller
First Class Passenger
Member # 1649

posted 09-26-2008 09:48 AM      Profile for eroller     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mike sa:

Well if this turns out to be the case then RCI and NCL are totally stuffed and likely to disappear altogether.



More doom and gloom. Personally I don't see it happening. If it does, then we will all have bigger problems then a cruise line going under to worry about.

If RCI and NCL were to go under, then say goodbye to the cruise industry all together. If the economy turns that sour, Carnival Corp. would no doubt have to downsize dramatically laying up ships and shutting down brands. We would be left with essentially one company owning the entire cruise industry, what is left of it. There are not too many industries that have a monopoly like that. If we go into a deep enough recession/depression, then no one will be cruising except the extremely wealthy, and guess what, they are not going to cruise on Carnival, Costa, P&O, AIDA, and HAL. All these cruise lines are marketed towards the middle class which in this scenario will not have cash to take a cruise. Perhaps Seabourn might survive in such a doomsday scenario.

I am a bit more optimistic and don't take one banks recommendation as a prelude to the end of the cruise industry as we know it.

Ernie


Posts: 7046 | From: Miami, Florida USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
ocngypz
First Class Passenger
Member # 1555

posted 09-26-2008 10:00 AM      Profile for ocngypz   Email ocngypz   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I rather think DB would fail waaaaaaaaaaaaay before Carnival.

Carnival has one thing DB doesn't.

CASH

Carnival has one thing RCL and NCL/Star/Apollo don't.

CASH

The only other player in the industry with cash:

MSC


Posts: 343 | From: Newport, RI USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
mike sa
First Class Passenger
Member # 5957

posted 09-26-2008 11:40 AM      Profile for mike sa   Author's Homepage   Email mike sa   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think for one minute that anyone is suggesting that carnival would fail, just that the target price for the stock is in today's and probable future circumstances is way too high, what I was suggesting is that given all cruise lines face the same issues RCI is especially vunerable given their very high debt gearing and thatthey are about to take delivery of some very expensive hardware - hardware for which the finance costs are going to be VERY much higher than anyone inc RCI would have thought when the orders were made, AND if less people cruise because they do not have the money or if RCI have to cut prices to fill them they are going to be VERY venerable indeed.
Posts: 2272 | From: Durban, South Africa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
JP
First Class Passenger
Member # 1373

posted 09-26-2008 11:45 AM      Profile for JP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's not as though CCL hasn't been downgraded before: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ud?s=CCL

Seldom down as far as SELL, though.


Posts: 280 | From: Minnesota, USA | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Pascal
First Class Passenger
Member # 5510

posted 09-26-2008 12:24 PM      Profile for Pascal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The fact that a bank downgrade a company from buy to sell isn't that worrying. It happens all the time and simply means that the price per share is too high compared to the money likely to be made with that share.
It's true that there will probably be rough times for the cruise industry. In the event of a crisis, one the first thing people would cut is their vacations. But there's no serious reason to think a company such as RCCL is bound to bankruptcy as they still have a important margin to downsize their activity if really needed.

Posts: 1371 | From: Aix en Provence | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 09-26-2008 12:51 PM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
buy to sell, hold etc reports are issued all the time, they arrive regularly in my email just have to look beyond and use one's own intuition too. I have not bothered reading the reports of late as everything is doom and gloom it seems

Pam


Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
NWLB
First Class Passenger
Member # 1987

posted 09-26-2008 04:20 PM      Profile for NWLB   Author's Homepage   Email NWLB   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mickey A. is in a position to be openly snide and vindictive when it comes to RCI, and I doubt anything he, or those under his sway say about the Oasis has much real substance. Anybody could find a way to describe the ships as impossible to make work in the long-run. His company operates a different model, people have wondered why Carnival hasn't answered RCI's progressive ship design and size, and indeed, late last year they were openly defensive about how they do things.

Any comment from anybody at Carnival, about anybody including their own company, has to be taken with many grains of salt.

RCI will be fine, as will Carnival. And I would expect to see Fain play many options before the line could, or would fail outright. And no matter what, that fleet will sail under its own brand regardless. Arison might sit there and kvetch about how RCI is wasting money, but oh how his tune would change if he had the chance to own the line. And don't think for an instant he wouldn't continue to build ships as big if he did own the line.

I would argue RCI as a company, is more of a jewel, than any of Carnivals various brands individually.


Posts: 329 | From: Bowling Green, Ohio | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Patsy
First Class Passenger
Member # 5611

posted 09-26-2008 05:54 PM      Profile for Patsy   Author's Homepage   Email Patsy   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Exactly and you get just as good an experience on Celebrity as you do on Cunard (sometimes better) for less money. Cunard will be one struggling at the prices they're charging. They'll have to come down a lot. Will they be able to sustain 3 expensive ships? P&O are generally slightly more than Princess which I find odd. Carnival brands are competing with each other out of Southampton, Caribbean and the Med. Something has to give and fly/cruises will be the start. Then what? RCI don't have as many ships to fill as Carnival so could come out on top. COULD. We'll have to see what happens over the next year.
Posts: 2023 | From: Hythe, Hants | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 09-26-2008 06:56 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Patsy:
Cunard will be one struggling at the prices they're charging. They'll have to come down a lot.

I'm not so sure. Lower the price and Cunard may turn into something else!

A few years back Channel dropped the price of it's perfumes and found it actually sold less.


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged

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