Cruise Talk: New v Old?

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»	Cruise Talk » Ocean Liners and Classic Cruise Ships » New v Old?

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Topic: New v Old?

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 06-27-1999 04:10 PM

Why do new cruise ships look so different to the old ocean liners? Answer: because they are designed for a different purpose.

I understand the above, but why for example are the old style funnels tubular, and todays 'open' design? Why does the superstructure look so different ie today the hull merges into the body of the ship?

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!

Barryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 33

posted 06-28-1999 10:11 AM

I think the answer to your question is simply a matter of evolution in the design of passenger ships. The reason the old liners had such a pronounced superstructure was based on the "deck house" concept from the really old days of sail/paddlesteam ships. Those old ships had a deck house, which would house the passengers and dinning room etc. They even had a special deck house for the cows and chickens for fresh milk and eggs. In fact, do you know how Cunard developed their funnel colors? Apparently (this is completely from memory so if someone knows the complete story let us know) In the old days of paddle steamers, the little smoke stacks were not painted, because the heat made it difficult to paint these funnels. Different formulas were experimented with but none seem to maintain their color because of the heat. Finally, by accident, milk from the cow, spilled into some other paint, and splattered onto the funnel casing - and the paint actually remained - creating an orangish red color, which was eventually used to paint the unique Cunard Red stacks on Britannia. It's a bizzare story and I forgot where I read or heard about this. - Anyways, back to your original question - I think cruise ship designers realized they can get more interior space by eliminating the traditional superstructure. It may not look as nice as the old ships, but it makes sense and is more economical.

Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99

edwardv
First Class Passenger
Member # 566

posted 06-28-1999 04:46 PM

I think there is also other reasons besides advanced ship design for the newer ships somewhat strange appearance. If you examine the Rotterdam VI, for example, you will see that the basic design pattern is focus all attention to the inside of the ship, the shops the casinos, the bars. Older ships (not necessarily ocean liners, but many of the older cruise ships, were designed so that passengers could actual see, hear & smell the ocean (I know, a radical reason for taking a cruise!) the outside deck areas were designed for this - the penultimate design in this area was, IMHO, the Royal Princess, where the shops & casinos were tucked away below, the outside deck areas were superb to provide the maxmimum sea experience for the maximum number of passengers. I'm afraid she was the last of her kind tho...

Posts: 10 | From: Overland, MO, USA | Registered: Dec 98

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 06-29-1999 07:42 AM

I realise that we cannot turn the clock back, but I think that the modern designers have got it wrong!

The only real observation that one can make about the new breed of mega-ships is that they are simply 'BIG'. I think that if the designers thought a little more about style and good taste, their new ships would be even more sucsessful.

The Norway and the QE2 are still regarded as 'special' because of thier stylish lines, not just their history. Interestingly, Disney have realised the importance of the appearance of their new ships 'Magic' and 'wonder'. Both are very modern but retain a 'classic liner' type look.

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!

Renegade4
First Class Passenger
Member # 392

posted 06-29-1999 09:22 AM

To get a bit off subject...

I think that the mentality used in designing today's cruise ships is very similar to the mentality that is used in designing today's computer programs.

Being a system manager with 16 years programming experience, I cringe when I see the size of the applications being developed.
Now that the need to conserve system resources does not seem to be paramount, today's developers, and I use the term loosely, include code that may never be required in order to add some silly functionality that no one will ever use.

This analogy may seem a stretch, but think about it. Do we really need an ice skating rink or a rock climbing wall or a disco that looks like a spoiler on a dragster on board a ship? Could you imagine trying to design either of these into a "classic" hull design?

That's my $0.02 for today as I sit here writing efficient computer code without an ice skating rink interace.

Posts: 57 | From: Kingston, MA, USA | Registered: Apr 99

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 06-29-1999 10:41 AM

I am not anti mega-ships. However, I wonder how big ships get before a limit is reached? The limit may well be the publics perception that they have become too big?

In the UK, in the 1950's so called 'Holiday Camps' were very popular. The general public fell in love with the idea of cheap mass holidays. They eventually became a bit of a joke, often seeming like prison camps or sheep heards! They eventually fell out of favour. Carnivals 'Fun Ship' idea reminds me of the 'Holiday Camp' concept. (I'm not anti Carnival either).

I am a great advocate of 'what comes around, goes around'. I think we will reach a time when the public taste switches to smaller more personal ships?

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!

Joe at PwC
First Class Passenger
Member # 225

posted 06-29-1999 04:36 PM

I agree with Barryboat on the more or less business-oriented line of thought where maximization of the use of space is more cost-effective. In today's market, there seems no use for a large, open bow and well deck area (except if we look at the new grand-class Princess vessels, where swimming pools have been installed). It makes more business sense to maximize cabin space and public room space, so why not extend the length of the decks to the vessels' furthest extremities?

Still, for the most part (although I agree, the Disney ships are beautiful), it isn't pretty.

Posts: 385 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 06-30-1999 05:16 AM

...I don't think that ships like the 'Denstiny' will be preserved as monuments in the future like the 'Queen Mary' or capture the publics affection like the 'Norway' or 'QE2'. But only time will tell?

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!

sympatico
First Class Passenger
Member # 797

posted 07-01-1999 07:59 PM

We loved Rotterdam V but everything started to fall apart on her, A/C, plumbing, etc. Hated the Statendam when we first sailed on her but love her now - it grows on you, but I do hope HAL does not go bigger. Docked beside the "DENSITY' in St. Lucia in Feb. and it was enormous. People just kept pouring out of it. These new BIG ships will not be remembered like the lovely old ladies and I don't know how they are going to fill them. How stupid to put a skating rink on a ship. Where do these guys get these ideas.

Posts: 3305 | From: Toronto, Ont. Canada | Registered: Jul 99

mikew
First Class Passenger
Member # 707

posted 07-02-1999 01:47 AM

I agree with the comments posted above, but would add that simple economics also have a lot to do with it. when you look at the building of ships like the Queens and Normandie, everything was tailor built. Go and see the Queen Mary at Long Beach and look at the cabins - because of the sheer of the ship (the curve of the hull from bow to stern) every cabin door, each piece of panelling etc are all shaped individually. But nowadays with "square" ships, pieces of ship can be built in modular style and then bought together and welded. Likewise bathrooms are built off site as standard units and simply hooked into the ships plumbing - thats why you always step up into modern ship bathrooms! In many cases they come equipped down to the soap dish! Also cabins are very standard enabling economies of scale. Without this I don't think the vast nu in building components. That's why the vast number of 70000 tonne plus ships can be built nowadays - you simply could not (economically) construct a ship like Queen Mary any more. For proof of this look at the estimated cost of building a Titanic replica - far more than equivalent new ships of the same size. I think some modern ships are still good looking - RCCL's Sovereign of the Seas and her two sisters are good examples - take a look at that stern, it's pure Normandie! Others, such as Grand Princess, perhaps less so! Disney Magic was a good effort but the Mickey Mouse on the bow doesn't add a lot of dignity...

Posts: 14 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jul 99

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-05-1999 05:01 PM

Sympatico, you said: "How stupid to put a skating rink on a ship". I kinda agree, but I bet that it will be popular with the RCCL passengers!

They will be able to have 'Broadway' style shows 'on Ice'! I'd love to see the skaters perform in rough seas ;-)

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!

Gerry
First Class Passenger
Member # 168

posted 07-06-1999 10:20 AM

I look after the Queen Mary Project for Cunard Line and would like to assure you that we are doing our absolute utmost to make this ship a classic Liner and not just a cruise ship (although she will be able to do just that, as QE2 does. You are right about the cost it is almost (but not quite) prohibitive! With the solid backing we have now it is happening.
We are using different aspects of the old Liners on QM2. She will have areas recognizable from various predecessors like Queen Mary, Normandie and most obviously QE2.
These will not be "impressions" of them but actual necessary design. I can't wait 'til everyone can see what we are doing. It is a unique concept which has not been done since the '60s with QE2. Modern Cruise ships are designed as hotels then have a hull put around them. With QM2 we have a Transatlantic hull, streamlined and very strong and are putting the hotel into it.
She will instantly become a classic the moment she is launched.

Posts: 315 | From: Miami, Florida, (originally from UK) | Registered: Jun 99

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 07-06-1999 04:51 PM

It's nice to see the SS Norway doing so well in Travelpage.com's cruise survey. You see, the pulic do prefer the older ships!

(Check out the cruise survey, just click on 'cruise news' above).

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!

rdv1111
First Class Passenger
Member # 742

posted 08-16-1999 04:52 PM

Their are two basic reasons why ship's today are boxy.

1. Steel is VERY expensive to curve. the less curves, the cheaper the price. Also, the thinner steel they use nowadays doesn't bend very well. It gets too thin.

2. The boxiness permits maximum square footage in the vessel. older vessels with pronounced tapers to the bow and stern have a great deal of wasted space. The boxy look makes almost every inch of a ship useful.

I'll take an older vessel anyday, they ride better and are just plain safer from a hull and engine perspective. Steam plants are very safe and reliable

Posts: 51 | From: Belchertown, Ma 01007 | Registered: Aug 99

DAMBROSI
First Class Passenger
Member # 100

posted 08-17-1999 12:06 PM

well, i agree on the older ships.
when my husband and i were getting
prices for our 15th wedding anniversary cruise, we wanted an
older ship. the older ones from
the transatlantic days have a much
better design and can handle rough
seas far better. when hurricane
andrew was out there, we heard
how the SS OCEANIC beat that storm
in. ATTA GIRL!!!!! i don't think
all the new ships will have the class and adoration of the older
ones. they just don't have it.
i have seen the disney ship and to
be honest, the only thing that
resembles the transatlantic look
is the bow. when you see a down
shot, in a photograph or in their
commercial. the bow resembles just
a bit of the SS NORMANDIE. the
interiors are another matter. that
is for the kids. as for cunard's
project QM2, it should be very interesting as to the design and
interiors. when my husband was an
agent before i met him, there
was a fellow who worked for NAC
before CUNARD bought them, then
he worked for CUNARD, his name
is CHRIS HACKENSEN. i think i
spelled his name right, MR. GERRY,
is CHRIS still there? we were just
wondering. he was a sales representative. thank you for your
valuable help. have a nice day everybody.

Posts: 2554 | From: Florida, USA, Where the Legend SS NORWAY sailed from. Moving back to FL next yr. | Registered: May 99

Paddy
First Class Passenger
Member # 357

posted 08-17-1999 04:43 PM

I agree. When I saw the photo-trivia picture of Royal Olympic's Triton alongside the Grand Princess, I couldn't believe it. Okay, I'm sure the Grand Princess is a fabulous ship and her passengers love her, I was on a ship similar to the Triton, the Seawing, and I loved it. So it didn't have 7-storey atria, 6 swimming pools, ice-rinks etc. that are only found on the biggest and "best". What it did have however was personality, intimacy, and charm. I am sure that this cannot be reached to the same extent on the superliners, especially, from what i've seen the Carnival Destiny and Triumph, which are a bit too Las Vegas. I believe P&O and Disney have the right formula, for example, P&O's new Aurora, as far as I can see, has a perfect mix of intimacy and spaciousness.

Posts: 763 | From: Belfast, Ireland | Registered: Aug 99

Gerry
First Class Passenger
Member # 168

posted 08-17-1999 05:33 PM

Hi Dambrosi,

Chris Hackensen is retired now, living in West Palm Beach,Florida. There are a couple of NAC folk still here in the office but obviously more onboard Vistafjord. I never met him myself but have seen lots of things with his name on.

Posts: 315 | From: Miami, Florida, (originally from UK) | Registered: Jun 99

DAMBROSI
First Class Passenger
Member # 100

posted 08-17-1999 08:12 PM

Hello again Gerry, thank you for
telling us where my husband's good
friend is. When my husband ran
the travel agency in Dania in the
mid 70's and all through the 80's
Chris was the first cruise rep. to
come and see him. And he gave my
husband a beautiful full color
photograph of VISTAFJORD. Have a
good evening and thank you again.

Posts: 2554 | From: Florida, USA, Where the Legend SS NORWAY sailed from. Moving back to FL next yr. | Registered: May 99

DAMBROSI
First Class Passenger
Member # 100

posted 08-17-1999 08:17 PM

P.S. Mr. Gerry,
We still have the VISTAFJORD photo
and some beautiful pin or ashtrays
when Chris worked for NAC, they
show the itinerary for both ships
in 2 different years. He is a very
kind person. And we treasure those
very articles.

Posts: 2554 | From: Florida, USA, Where the Legend SS NORWAY sailed from. Moving back to FL next yr. | Registered: May 99

DAMBROSI
First Class Passenger
Member # 100

posted 08-17-1999 08:18 PM

Posts: 2554 | From: Florida, USA, Where the Legend SS NORWAY sailed from. Moving back to FL next yr. | Registered: May 99

ROTTERBRANDT
unregistered

posted 11-12-2002 10:06 AM

Computer aided design and manufacturing has greatly reduced the development cost of ship building. Many of those compound curves chaced by hand are done on a CNC machine in minutes within a millemeter of accuracy.

Computers have made the project management much easier too with instant communication and tracking.

To rebuild the Normandie to plans would cost over a billion dollars. She was $60 million in 1930.

Steam turbines so not vibrate like diesels

quote:
Originally posted by rdv1111:
Their are two basic reasons why ship's today are boxy.
1. Steel is VERY expensive to curve. the less curves, the cheaper the price. Also, the thinner steel they use nowadays doesn't bend very well. It gets too thin.
2. The boxiness permits maximum square footage in the vessel. older vessels with pronounced tapers to the bow and stern have a great deal of wasted space. The boxy look makes almost every inch of a ship useful.
I'll take an older vessel anyday, they ride better and are just plain safer from a hull and engine perspective. Steam plants are very safe and reliable

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