Would the Europa been a reparation to France to become the Liberte?

Would her early Art Deco Interiors have been redone? In the 1950's it was VERY out of fashion.

Would the France have been built to succeed her?

Her useful life would have been 35 years.

Would she have been scrapped?

Would have she been turned into a museum/hotel like the Queen Mary?

Would the Queen Mary have been scrapped?

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Originally posted by desirod6:
Supposing the Normandie survived, served gallantly like her rivals Queen Mary 1, and the Queen Elizabeth 1.

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Thanks to her speed and size she would be, like the Queens, a very valuable troopship serving the US as the USS LAFAYETE.

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Could the Europa been a reparation to France to become the Liberte?

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Would her early Art Deco Interiors have been redone? In the 1950's it was VERY out of fashion.

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Perphaps a more mild form of Art Deco because the Art Deco inspired many interior designers on the post-War years.

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Would the France have been built to succeed her?

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Her useful life would have been 35 years.

Would she have been scrapped?

Would have she been turned into a museum/hotel like the Queen Mary?

Would the Queen Mary have been scrapped?

Any ideas?

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Here we arrive to the realm of possibility and "what if's". I think that she might have finished her life in a scrapyard because she was to big, to expensive to maintain.

Regards

Paulo Mestre

Basically, JMG surmises that she would have served honorably and admirably through the war and that she would have been refitted over a period of several years after the war but never regained her former glory.

He goes on that in the late fifties and sixties, her life mirrors that of the Queens and turns to more and more cruising and becomes a victim of her own fate and creators and succombs to suffer mechanical breakdowns and fires; as most French ships did and still do. Branded out of date and uneconomical, she is withdrwawn from service in 66 I believe when the new France enters service.

Read the chapter and the entire book...highly reccomended. JMG does a much more eloquent job than my synopsis.

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Originally posted by desirod6:
Would she have been scrapped?

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Yes, she would either have been scrapped or she would now be a rusty hulk like the SS United States.

Just because a ship is stunning and historic, does not mean that any Business would risk their capital to save her!

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Originally posted by NAL:
timber.....

Least we remember FRANCE was one of the most
reliable liners and was fire-free as far as
I know.

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As the France yes. As the Norway...No.

In my opinion, she would have recaptured the Hales Trophy from Queen Mary. Afterall, QM needed a power plant 1/3 larger than Normandie just to gain a slight advantage in speed.

As a troopship, I think she would have been an invaluable asset and would have helped to even out France's part in the war effort....no disrespect to France intended.

As to her fate, well, I would hope that she would have gone on to provide reliable, comfortable service for her passengers. I'd like to think that her career was so celebrated that she would now be sitting in LeHavre and QM, which should have never left England, would be sitting in Southampton.

Of course not every ship can become a museum or floating hotel so, if she had been scrapped, hopefully her wonderful interiors would have been saved and would have ended up going to sea again....ala Celebrity's Normandie Restaurant.

I think Europa would have survived the cutter's torch and would have eventually gone back to the Germans.....at least I'd like to think so.

I'm not so sure that France of '62 would have been built; at least not in her original incarnation. Afterall, Normandie would have only been 27 years old in '62 and would have had about 10 years of life left in her. I guess it would have depended on how successful her post-war career had been.

Nevertheless, there will never be another ship like Normandie; QM2 may come close but, it's just not the same.....IMO, Normandie was PERFECT.

Here's an idea for Carnival: Start a cruise line called The Nostalgia Line. Build replicas of Normandie, the first Mauretania, Olympic, Bremen, Rex, and Queen Elizabeth. Wouldn't we ship buffs be in heaven?!

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Originally posted by linerguy:
Thanks, desirod.

the
.....IMO, Normandie was PERFECT.

Wouldn't we ship buffs be in heaven?!

Russ

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For first class passengers that is. The 3rd class public rooms on the Normandie were nice, but the cabins were small, needed an appointment to take a bath, forget the shower, and had a tiny little outside lido deck and miniscule promenade above the propellors.

We only see the grand 1st class spaces in most of the books about her. The first class travel was priced on a par with Crystal or Seaborne.

I sailed Olympia as a child the year before she was converted to full time cruising. The affordable cabins of yesteryear and the hall bath are not terribly nice.

However if the Normandie and other greats were non-class segregated as they were on cruising runs, I could really enjoy them with full run of the ship.

[ 02-12-2004: Message edited by: desirod7 ]

The Rex and Conte di Sovoya, Empress off Brittain, Statendam 3 and many liners sunk in the war would have been in service.

The Normandie would have been rebuilt after the war i believe in the same maner as the HAL dith with there Nieuw Amsterdam. The France government and CGT would have done everthing to bring the Normandie in service. The Americans would have payed the France rent fore the service off Normandie. Ass the Brittisch government, payed rent fore the Nieuw Amsterdam.

Now that Cunard had lost their biggest rival that could be compared or even be superior to the Queen Mary, and since the planned sister ship of Normandie was never build to act as a reaction to Queen Elizabeth, assured Cunard a comfortable domination of the Atlantic (considering Super Liners) for a long time.

Without Normandie there was a contrasting alternative gone in the liner market and with less competition companies tent to be less innovative and undertaking as well.

I guess we never find out what could have been.

Actually the Amerika / Viktoria was a design for NDL not HAPAG, and she was closer to 95,000 GRT I think. The HAPAG ship you are thinking of was the Vaterland II, of about 42,000 GRT, which was launched but bombed out during the war. She was supposed to be the first if a new class for HAPAG. From what I have read about the Bretagne, the Normandie's future fleetmate, she would have been pretty similar to her older sister, but with two stacks instead of three. I think she would have been only slightly larger, around 85,000 GRT. It would have been interesting to see what was built had there ever been a WWII, including the lovely Stockholm and the fleetmate for the Nieuw Amsterdam.

Thad

[ 02-12-2004: Message edited by: Thad ]

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Originally posted by Thad:
Maasdam,

Actually the Amerika / Viktoria was a design for NDL not HAPAG, and she was closer to 95,000 GRT I think. The HAPAG ship you are thinking of was the Vaterland II, of about 42,000 GRT, which was launched but bombed out during the war. She was supposed to be the first if a new class for HAPAG. From what I have read about the Bretagne, the Normandie's future fleetmate, she would have been pretty similar to her older sister, but with two stacks instead of three. I think she would have been only slightly larger, around 85,000 GRT. It would have been interesting to see what was built had there ever been a WWII, including the lovely Stockholm and the fleetmate for the Nieuw Amsterdam.

Thad

[ 02-12-2004: Message edited by: Thad ]

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You right Thad i messed things up with the German ships. But the Bretagne beautifful name isn't as all CGT names. I reed somewhere that she was at 100.000 grt. But what ever the size it would be interesting.

About the sister to the Nieuw Amsterdam there are two models made one with two and one with three funnels. The model ships look fantastic. The models are now in the collection off the Maritime Museum in Rotterdam. On the site off Onno there are pictures off the two models in comperisson with the tss. Rotterdam 5 off 1959.

I got some more pictures and info on my site under the menu category “Articles about Ships” Well see the above link to my site.

Greetings from Holland, Onno

[ 02-12-2004: Message edited by: Onno ]

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Originally posted by Thad:
From my understanding of the Bretagne, there were two competing designs for the ship, CGT's original design, which was an evolved Normandie, or about 85,000 GRT, and Vladimir Yourkevitch's design, which was radical, and was 100,000 GRT. This design was for an all one class mega liner, which would have changed transatlantic travel incredibly. The board of CGT was not ready for that move, and instead started to move forward with the "improved" Normandie instead. Here is a sketch of Vladimir Yourkevitch's design, which was unusual to say the least

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Who knows, who knows!!!

Best, Onno

Model of Q3 concept.

[ 02-12-2004: Message edited by: Onno ]

That said I must say the little picture looks a lot like the Rhine river boats, the proportions are all wrong for an ocean liner.

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Originally posted by Onno:
Since we are on the “what if” tour, Normandie surviving could have pushed the also never realised Q3 concept in an attempt to come up with a new competing product against an alternate France Line which would have been eagerly to come with an even more impressive liner as an appropriate response.

Who knows, who knows!!!

Best, Onno

Model of Q3 concept.

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The Cunard Queens had a more toned down look and atmosphere which attracts a more reliable and faithful public. That is why they where so popular.

Best, Onno

PS: I know it is a side track, but QM2 is designed with the same fashionable basis as Normandie and it makes me wonder if QM2 would still be successful annex fashionable in 10, 20, 30 or 40 years.

[ 02-12-2004: Message edited by: Onno ]