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Therefore, I wonder if it is thus cheaper to build a modern 2000 passenger cruise ship than it was to build the 'Queen Mary', allowing for inflation?
It's a very complex question.
The classic liners had thicker steel plates, and almost every plate in their hulls was curved--not a single straight plate anywhere. The technology and skills to do that today would be cost-prohibitive. Also, of course, the man-hours involved in her interiors, the high degree of craftsmanship, are almost a lost art today.
Rich
As a side note, the Hoover dam is also and object that thanks to safety regulations etc can’t be build today (the same goes for the great wall of China) supersonic flight has ended, it is impossible again to place a man on the moon and the space shuttles are grounded.
Do we honestly live in a superior world and time? You be the judge of that!
Onno
[ 06-25-2005: Message edited by: Onno ]
I'd like to think that modern construction technologies play a large part in making such projects feasible. It is sad that such craftsmenship is almoust totally gone (aside from a few places, like Russia and the Middle East where traditional skills are still available); but through modern materials, the look of old world craftsmanship can be duplicated without the cost or skill. You loose a lot when you go the Las Vegas route, but if done right, the fake stuff can look pretty good.
quote:Originally posted by Onno:Do we honestly live in a superior world and time? You be the judge of that!
When I was younger I used to think all things new were better than all things old, but not now.
However, just imagine catching the boat train to Southampton’s ‘Ocean Terminal’ to board the ‘Queen Mary’.
Imagine the station masters in their smart uniforms with highly polished shoes and the bell boys and porters who would also be impeccably dressed.
Imagine the Art Deco finery of the cruise terminal, a perfect match for the finery of the ship. Imagine the all of the smartly dressed passengers.
Progress?
In that sence there is no diffrance between thene and now. The only diffrence is the techic, material etc. Made that an cruiseship is cheaper to build thene an liner.
Greetings Ben.
[ 06-26-2005: Message edited by: Maasdam ]
Also, it is not true that nowadays hulls are simpler or not curved like those fo the old "liners" - but today it is possible to have "flat surfaces" and more "rectangular shaped" rooms/cabins giving the ships this boxy appearance (above the water surface!)
Also prefabrication is not only cutting costs but allows a precision and quality one could not even dream of when e.g. the Normandie has been built.
So nowadays ships are not only more efficient, but they are much safer, more envirmentally friendly, have much more structural strength and built to MUCH, MUCH higher quality standards than decades ago.
Just because a lot of interiors are looking cheap and tasteless for some of us copmared to "calssic liners" (not to talk about the exterior) does not mean that the are also technically inferior - the contrary is the case.
Now the masses are travelling to Southampton to cruise, thats progress.
Phil.
quote:Originally posted by philcheese2001:Now the masses are travelling to Southampton to cruise, thats progress.
I take your point, but I would argue that cruising is still not really 'mass market' in the UK.
I am more and more thinking that old times weren't as good as thought, interesting that is, but I do sincerely hope this time is the best, certainly on a technological field.
And if you have lots of money, it doesn't really matter in what time you live, i guess.J
quote:Ernst wrote:it is not true that knowledge has been lost and that liners like "back then" could not be built today. Actually nowadays ships are superior in many ways, and many things can be done today which were impossible back then.Also, it is not true that nowadays hulls are simpler or not curved like those fo the old "liners" - but today it is possible to have "flat surfaces" and more "rectangular shaped" rooms/cabins giving the ships this boxy appearance (above the water surface!)Also prefabrication is not only cutting costs but allows a precision and quality one could not even dream of when e.g. the Normandie has been built.So nowadays ships are not only more efficient, but they are much safer, more envirmentally friendly, have much more structural strength and built to MUCH, MUCH higher quality standards than decades ago.Just because a lot of interiors are looking cheap and tasteless for some of us copmared to "calssic liners" (not to talk about the exterior) does not mean that the are also technically inferior - the contrary is the case.
I agree.
As for craftsmen, they can still be found. Testimony are the many large yachts of the rich and famous that have interiors built by specialist craftsmen in wood, metals, stone (marble), etc.
******
Cheers
quote:Originally posted by Ernst:it is not true that knowledge has been lost and that liners like "back then" could not be built today. Actually nowadays ships are superior in many ways, and many things can be done today which were impossible back then.
Agreed, but I think the issue here is that it is cost-prohibitive to build ships as they were in the past, when liners were essentially "hand-made", as opposed to today's almost assembly line process.
quote:Originally posted by Linerrich:Agreed, but I think the issue here is that it is cost-prohibitive to build ships as they were in the past, when liners were essentially "hand-made", as opposed to today's almost assembly line process.Rich
The question is whether the work process should be imitated - here the costs would be prohibitve - or wheter the result is the relevant thing - today much better quality can be achieved at much lower costs (this is of course not true for pieces of art or similar kind of craftsmanship or decoration)
Actually generating a liner hull is easier to build than ever. The 1980's was the Jurrasic era for CAD/CAM systems.
3d cad/cam systems such as CATIA, SOLIDWORKS,ALIAS, and 3DSTUDIOMAX can loft a hull in virtual space and a CNC machine can spit out each plate within a 3/32" tolerance and fit together far easier during the 1980's. Many of the old liner plates were hand fitted.
I can loft with SOLIDWORKS in 5 minutes what took me a week by hand.
The hull thickness can be less due to better quality steel and better structural systems due to computer optimization.
Frank Gehry's buildings use modern ship building techniques for his designs.
In today's dollars the QM2 cost as much as the Normandie. It does not have sheer or camber, but sophisticated electronics. propulsion, and hotel systems that Yourkevitch[sp] could not have dreamed of.
quote:Originally posted by Linerrich:I remember back in the '80s, working at Carnival, when they were building entirely new ships. Someone did a study on the MARDI GRAS and it would have cost more to replicate her than to build several newer generation vessels.The classic liners had thicker steel plates, and almost every plate in their hulls was curved--not a single straight plate anywhere. The technology and skills to do that today would be cost-prohibitive. Also, of course, the man-hours involved in her interiors, the high degree of craftsmanship, are almost a lost art today.Rich
Thad
quote:Originally posted by Thad:How much in dollars did the Normandie cost? I think it was 60 Million. If you use your handy inflation calculator, you will see that was worth 788 million in 2003. I think desirod is exactly right, the Normandie and QM2 cost just about the same taking inflation into account. Interesting.Thad
That sounds about right. The all '1st class' QM2 offers very comfortable standard grade cabins that the three class Normandie never did. Of course Normandie was designed nearly 80 years ago for a very different market. The materials that went into creating her incredible 1st class public rooms are mostly still available but the cost (as well as SOLAS) would prevent many being used today.
quote:Originally posted by Thad:.. the Normandie and QM2 cost just about the same taking inflation into account.
Yes, interesting. The QM2 wins on creature comforts and technology, but Normandie wins on style and workmanship.
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