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America's Flagship Receives $250,000 DonationInspired by Pollin Challenge Grant, Anonymous Donor Jump-starts 2015 Fundraising with Generous Gift for Curatorial Planning As we enter a new and exciting year for America's Flagship, the Conservancy is proud to announce that we have received of one of our largest ever individual contributions. The gift of $250,000 was made by an anonymous donor who was inspired by the generosity and passion exhibited by cruise industry executive Jim Pollin. Last year Jim donated an initial $120,000, followed by a generous challenge grant. Supporters from across the country and around the world answered Jim's call to action by donating $120,000, prompting Jim to match this amount. Jim was recently honored with the Conservancy's National Flagship Champion Award. "Jim's donations have now yielded more than half a million dollars for America's Flagship," said our executive director, Susan Gibbs. "This new major donor, who wishes to remain anonymous, is helping us build on the momentum of our encouraging redevelopment agreement announced in December. Feasibility studies for the ship's conversion are ongoing, and many design and engineering challenges must still be overcome. However, this extraordinarily generous donation provides real wind at the sails of our efforts." Funds from the new gift will be used in the near-term for advancing our various curatorial programs, including planning for the SS United States Museum of Design and Discovery. Preliminary designs for the museum include restoring key areas of the ship to create innovative and immersive experiences for visitors. The museum and the Conservancy's curatorial and archival programs will be developed in consultation with our advisory council and other specialists, including maritime historians and experts previously associated with the Smithsonian Institution, Philadelphia's Franklin Institute, and the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation. "While our new development partners continue their due diligence and planning for the repurposing of the SS United States, the Conservancy will use this generous donation to jump-start the exciting process of developing a world-class museum. We will also continue our global search and cataloging of original artifacts, artwork and ephemera from the vessel, as well as compiling and digitizing passenger and crew records, among other important projects," Susan explained. Jim said: "Last year, I asked the world to help save our flagship. I asked people to join me in ensuring this majestic piece of American history had a future. This new gift is an amazing display of confidence in the Conservancy's vision and an acknowledgement of the ship's historic importance for all of us."
How much of this generous donation will get eaten up in mooring fees for the shell of the former record breaking atlantic liner ' United States ' ?
Compared with the 80 year old ' RMS Queen Mary ' she has a long way to go to become a tourist attraction with cabin accommodation available, restaurants and shops open plus other attractions available..
I doubt if she will ever open and what will happen when they try to move her ?
She is too big to be put on a pontoon to move her !
It might be better to just cut her up and sell parts of her hull as a souvenier. .
[ 02-10-2015: Message edited by: Neil - Ex P. & O. S. N. Company. ]
quote:Originally posted by Neil - Ex P. & O. S. N. Company.:[...] She is too big to be put on a pontoon to move her ! [...]
Actually, Dockwise Vanguard could carry her easily.
Last year you were going on about how the Conservancy could not raise money and there was no hope. Well ... they have received several large donations now and they have a preliminary agreement for redevelopment which has a team working on feasibility studies. Sounds like progress to me!
As for your comments about her integrity -- they are simply misinformed. Naval architects have surveyed her and soundings were done on the hull in the past. It was built to such high standards in the 1950s that it is nearly as solid as the day she was built. Wastage is minimal .... far less than the Queen Mary's hull. The United States remains high and dry, floating on the tide, etc. Recently architects from the Maritime Administration and Gibbs & Cox toured the ship and both said she is in excellent condition with the majority of the work required being solely cosmetic!
From the beginning everyone has known that the Conservancy had a monumental task ahead. True there is a lot more to be achieved but they should be respected for what they have accomplished so far!
Thankfully they are optimists and continue to believe in the possibilities!
quote:Originally posted by Ernst:Actually, Dockwise Vanguard could carry her easily.
That would be a sight to see I am not sure there would be enough water under her hull to get her aboard though? Maybe mid stream?
Pam
I have always thought that if she would prove to be a crowd puller one of the large american companies like Disney would be interested but that has not happend much as in the UK when nobody was rearly interested in saving the QE2 as they know this type of operation rarely makes a profit and often can not cover the operating costs !
Much of her original eqipment has vanished and what there is left will never make her into a tourist attraction like the ' RMS Queen Mary .
Many of those that remembered her in service, 60 years ago, are now getting too old to visit her if she should ever be opened to the public.
Better to remember her as a record breaker and let her be scrapped ! .
[ 02-11-2015: Message edited by: Neil - Ex P. & O. S. N. Company. ]
The Conservancy explained at the time they signed the preliminary agreement that the developer would be covering the wharfage while they conducted feasibility studies. So 100% of the current donation is earmarked for the development of the museum.
Disney was a total flop with the Queen Mary and actually damaged the ship in places that are still be reversed!
The plan from the beginning has been to create a new multi-use space not a static tourist attraction! This calls for a developer with appropriate experience not a theme park operator.
As for the "equipment" having vanished that is also misinformation. Nothing "vanished." The engine rooms and machinery spaces have been preserved and recently they have actually removed some unnecessary items that would hinder the future exhibit space qualities and would make space for the plans to create museum spaces. Things like the electrical wire and plumbing would all have to be removed and brought up to modern standards so it is actually good that a lot has already been stripped away as it saves the demolition costs now.
True the furnishings has been scattered to the four corners of the globe but some people have already indicated their interest or willingness to have some pieces returned to the ship. However as I said the plan is to create modern multi-use spaces so this will require refitting the spaces for their new purposes. It should be pointed out that both the Queen Mary and the Rotterdam have also lost most or all of their original furniture in areas such as the lounges and in the case of the Rotterdam they also leveled the floor in the theatre and rebuilt other spaces to make them useful today. We all know how extensively the Queen Mary was rebuilt after she retired and they continue to alter spaces aboard the ship to this day.
It would never been successful to simply have put up a velvet rope and charge people to walk through spaces frozen in time. The ship must pay her own way with a commercial operation that can also support the required ongoing maintenance. So you create spaces aboard that provide displays of the past and for that they can find plenty of examples or what once was while the remainder of the spaces become new things like modern hotel rooms, meeting rooms, retail space, etc. to pay the bills!
By the by the QE2's problem is no one could top the $100 million dollars Dubai was willing to pay Cunard/Carnival for the ship. Lots of proposals were made for the ship and are still being made to bring her back to the UK but the purchase price is a major obstacle.
In the case of the United States she is not in the hands of a commercial entity but instead she is in the hands of the Conservancy who has a purpose of preserving not making a profit off her sale.
If the Conservancy achieves its goal you end up with a living/breathing operation as opposed to some stale museum. What is preserved is the spirit of the ship with appropriate displays and the ship aficionados get to see her graceful hull with its powerful lines, stand beneath those towering funnels, walk the long promenades and enjoy a look at a moment in history which otherwise would be totally lost. No book with how many ever pictures can give you the same feeling as standing under that prow or on the deck below those massive funnels or walking through the most powerful engine room ever put into a liner!
I can never see this happening with the ' ss United States ' so she will just be a museum ship but with what ?
There is a lot of space on board to fill with the history of the ship !
The Chinese owned 1962 built 14,225 grt ex cruise ship ' Minghua ' is an example of what can be done with a newer style of ship as she was moved into a cutting, near to Shenzhen, which was then filled in and so her hull is now completely landlocked.
There she operates as a hotel ship with some beautifully fitted cabins and many attractions on board including a swimming pool and a golf course alongside her !
Without continue financial backing the ' ss United States ' is unlikly to earn enough money to pay for her upkeep so it would be better to let her go now before more money is wasted !.
Even still the Queen Mary continues to struggle. There's a proposal to create a new museum aboard and large portions of the lower decks are empty shells. The operator just canceled all the current retail contracts and all the stores were forced to close down. They are bringing in a new big new commercial operation in an attempt to remake the stores.
Rotterdam on the other hand shows how a reconstruction can be done. They stripped the ship to her steel both in the lounge areas and the cabins. Everything aboard is a recreation much like what would be done on the United States. None of the Rotterdam's original cabins survived and the new ones while they have the look are modern square boxes as opposed to the traditional lay out of a ship.
What was done on the Rotterdam is not all that different than Minghua but was more sensitive to the history. Also they chose not to beach the Rotterdam. I do not see why you can not see a developer doing something similar to one of these ships with the United States.
The United States can not and will not be "just be a museum ship." All the proposals the Conservancy is working on including the current preliminary agreement call for a mixed use redevelopment with commercial operations like the Rotterdam. A museum will be an element but only a small portion of the total square footage of the ship.
As you say ' The Queen Mary continues to struggle ' but with nothing inside her the ' United States ' is just a bare shell with nothing of her original facilities, history, or fittings left .
If she is ever opened as a tourist attraction she will just be a replica of what was and nothing more.
That to my mind is not preserving a ship and the money could be better spent going towards preserving some of the old US ferries, paddle steamers, or other ships which are still complete and in their original condition.
Spending money on the empty shell of the ' United States, which many people will now not remember, and never saw in service, is just a waste of money .
quote:Originally posted by Neil - Ex P. & O. S. N. Company.:Spending money on the empty shell of the ' United States, which many people will now not remember, and never saw in service, is just a waste of money .
Neil that is your opinion and fortunately not one shared by the individual who donated the money. If they were spending your money then you could complain all you want but since they are not this just comes off as sour milk.....but that is just my opinion
It is well known that most of these laid up ex passenger ships never make any profit so I am wondering if there are any tax benefits for a US citizen making such a donation !
I just can't understand why anyone would want a business which is going to loose money and finish up with nothing in the kitty to pay for continual maintenance work, mooring fees, etc .
It just does not make any business sense !
Let her be scrapped and then sell off mounted pieces of her hull as souveniers .
The profit from the sales could then go to a charity which would be a lot more useful ! .
Museum ships fail because they do not create an income stream sitting there empty and hoping people will go wonder around their empty spaces. The Rotterdam is an example of a commercial reuse as she has some museum spaces but she also has an active hotel and converted a lot of her spaces for use with meetings, convention, parties, etc.
The second part of the vision is the right location where the new facility is in the center of a high traffic local. Too often museum ships are put in poor locations chosen for sentimental reasons as opposed to economic. In New York City we have the Intrepid Air Sea and Space Museum which is one of the busiest New York tourist attractions. Conversely they put the battleship New Jersey in Camden which makes her more remote for potential visitors.
What it takes is vision and a business sense and then one of these projects can be successfully completed.
Has anyone any idea of the costs per month of mooring the ' ss United States ' in New York ?
An old passenger ship which is nothing like she was, in her days at sea, I would not consider worth visiting !
When compared with the large original areas which still remain on the much older ' RMS Queen Mary ' which also has the history of being a troop ship in the last world war what has the ' ss United States got to show ? .
The ' RMS Queen Mary ' also carried many American troops, on her unescorted voyages, around the world as nothing else could keep up with the speed of her and her sister ship the Cunard liner ' RMS Queen Elizebeth ' !
I know what I would visit if in the USA and it is unlikely to be the ' ss United States ' which has little history ! .
By your logic Niel the Rotterdam should also be a loss then because all her cabins were stripped out and replaced with facsimile rooms (in part) and while they preserved the look of most of the public rooms large changes were undertaken. The theatre floor was leveled and all the fixed furniture removed. Same in both dining rooms where all the furniture was removed. The former Club Room was converted to a restaurant and the former Lido was totally gutted for a modern style eatery.
Even on the Queen Mary massive reconstruction was carried out. About 300 hotel rooms were created by joining original rooms, etc. While the public rooms mostly survived all the furnishings are gone and most of the rooms are closed except for use by meetings, etc. The Cabin Class Dining Room is gone as is their pool. Thee lower decks are stripped and all but one of the engine spaces removed. The main eating establishments are newly created spaces - on the Promenade and in the old engineer's cabins. Yes the Queen Mary has a lot of storied history but that is not what keeps her going. There's a small number of visitors who come to see the history while the mast majority are there as part of the various functions and events held on board.
The United States is an engineering marvel and a early example of modern ship building techniques. Her machinery was so much more powerful than the Queen Mary that she slouched and still easily won the speed titles. There's growing evidence that when her power plant was opened up fully she did over 40 knots!
A small number of people (like with the Queen Mary) will come to see the history and will understand the engineering marvel. The Conservancy's plan is to have a museum space dedicated to her commercial service and a larger design museum. The remainder of the spaces will be commercial -- like the Queen Mary and the Rotterdam -- and that is what would draw the vast majority of her visitors and create her income.
Once again you seem to lack the information on why so much reconstruction was required for the ' Rotterdam '.
I do not know if you have heard of asbestos but all that had to be removed before she could be converted into a floating hotel which did involve a lot of stripping out before the conversion work could be started.
As you say the ' United States ' will be free of wharfage charges I take it she will have a new owner for this to happen !
Regarding being an engineering marval , she is now a 63 year old decaying museum piece and nothing more !
She is no longer the fastest passenger ship in service and several other ships have crossed the Atlantic Ocean at faster speeds !
So what are you left with - Just a rusting hulk which the large American entertainment companies are not interested in and which I doubt many people will spend money to visit !.
As her asbestos has been remove perhaps it might be better if they sunk her and used her as a diving attraction !
That way she might get some visitors even if they are only fish ! lol
.
[ 02-22-2015: Message edited by: Neil - Ex P. & O. S. N. Company. ]
We were not talking about the cost of the Rotterdam reconstruction and that's not why the Rotterdam was changed. Your comment to which I responded was the statement that since the United States lacked her 1950s fitting she was no longer a viable attraction.
If you want to go into the Rotterdam's costs (and yes I know what asbestos is) the asbestos removal was not necessary in the areas where it was encased because there was no new danger. Maybe you don't know but asbestos is only a danger when it can become airborne. Between a wall board and steel bulkhead it would never become airborne. However the regulators insisted it be removed .... and for that matter the people doing the reconstruction said the regulators insisted the old heavy furniture be removed too!
The changes like leveling the theatre and removing the folding theatre chairs and removing the fixed tables in the dining room and even reshaping the cabins to standard hotel boxes was not asbestos removal related. They could easily have put up new walls on the existing layout but instead made the changes to improve her earnings capabilities -- a very similar argument to the extensive changes made on the Queen Mary. Maybe you would like to stay in a Third Class cabin with only a wash basin but the hotel operator for the Queen Mary did not think most people would want that! The creation of the new eating spaces was economic on the Rotterdam not asbestos related either.
As I have said repeatedly the asbestos and obstructions to a refit (which as you point out cost the Rotterdam dearly) are already gone on the United States. Her interiors are a clean slate that can be built out like the Rotterdam or as the developer thinks appropriate.
Regarding a change of ownership I believe the Conservancy is willing to explore that with the partner but I can not speak for them. However it is not mandatory. The pier developer could easily rent the dock space to the United States for 99 years at $1 per year. Of course the ship would have to pay for electric and make arrangements for other services like water and sewer.
As for the United States' technology it is a demonstration of late 1940s/1950s steam technology of course but it is FAR advanced from the Queen Mary which was using 1920s technology. Technology fans would be interested to see how something so big went so fast and the advancements that were designed into the ship. Anyone else walking in the engine spaces will be in simple awe of the size and continue on their way --- much as they do on the Queen Mary today.
The United States is (and I suspect always will be) the fastest ocean liner to cross the Atlantic. True speed boats, etc. went faster (eastbound only) but they were not 53,000 GRT, 990 foot liners carry 3000 people with all the accoutrements and displacing 45,000 tons! You can put some little speedster next to a Rolls Royce and run a race and we know the outcome or race a helicopter and the Concorde, or a speed boat and the United States. It is simply not a fair comparison!
Want to talk about fair comparisons: the Queen Elizabeth tired and got left in the United States' wake. The France might have tried to no success and the QE2 did not even try. Nope no liner is faster than the United States and no liner will ever go faster than the United States!
And by the way the United States still holds the westbound speed title after all these years!
The record now stands at a crossing speed of 41.30 knots one way and 38.9 knots the opposite way by a passenger carrying ship !
At present there is no need for any new atlantic service liners to be built for speed !
What is left re the ' ss United States ' is the shell of a US built passenger ship which has no history, apart from the fast crossings of the Atlantic Ocean in July 1952, which happened over 60 years ago !
Most people will not remember this or where not born !
As I have said before it would be better to let her be scrapped or sink her as a diving attraction as it is very unlikely she will ever make any money as a tourist attraction as is shown with most of the other laid up passenger ships.
Re the ' RMS Queen Elizabeth ' being tired with the ' RMS Queen Mary ' they both served the UK as great troop carriers during the 2nd world war and operated at record speeds, which have never been disclosed, all over the world including going down to Australia !
The ' ss United States ' has none of these type of records to her credit and was just an Atlantic Ocean passenger ship which was not even in the same luxury class as some of the other great passenger ships on this service due to the fire regulations imposed when she was built which prevented the use of wood apart for a butchers block ! .
[ 02-26-2015: Message edited by: Neil - Ex P & O & PRINCESS CRUISES ]
quote:Originally posted by Neil - Ex P & O & PRINCESS CRUISES:The fastest crossings of the Atlantic Ocean are now made to win the ' Hales Trophy ' which was introduced in 1969 !
Now ..... you are just embarrassing yourself now. Time to stop.
[ 02-27-2015: Message edited by: SSTRAVELER ]
[ 02-27-2015: Message edited by: Neil - Ex P & O & PRINCESS CRUISES ]
[ 02-28-2015: Message edited by: hotman ]
Great to see you on here .
Have been involved with passenger shipping now for over sixty years so expect I have forgotten more about passenger and cruise ships than some have ever known ! lol .
[ 02-28-2015: Message edited by: Neil - Ex P & O & PRINCESS CRUISES ]
http://therealdeal.com/blog/2015/02/26/rxr-floats-idea-of-cruise-ship-at-superpier/
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